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Trayvon Martin, Vigilante Justice

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Why don't you read the thread, I volunteered that information before you or anyone else did.

Furthermore, as I discover more, this eyewitness says that Zimmerman's killing was NOT in self-defense...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=08Rf4G0JOOk#t=105s
That's the same witness who admits she didn't actually see the person shouting, only heard it. The one who gave different stories to the police than she did to the press. Who on the 911 call thought Zimmerman was black and couldn't tell what race Martin was.

That's who you're going to rest your case on?
 
That interview was on March 23, when did Sonner become Zimmerman's attorney?

Ahh! I am doing it now! I was reading links on FB, read breaking news and made the mistake of thinking this was new. :o

That makes me feel a little bit better because I really thought that his attorney was trying to sabotage his case or something.
 
That's the same witness who admits she didn't actually see the person shouting, only heard it. The one who gave different stories to the police than she did to the press. Who on the 911 call thought Zimmerman was black and couldn't tell what race Martin was.

That's who you're going to rest your case on?

You know, when you think about it, she profiled. She heard a shooting, saw someone dead and assumed the shooter was black... color her face red!
 
You mean ear-witness. She saw nothing until after the fact.
She said she KNOWS it was not self-defense. That's a pretty strong statement from a witness. And since the Burden of Proof is on Zimmerman (affirmative defense), this means he's going to be in a lot of trouble come court-time.
 
Why don't you read the thread, I volunteered that information before you or anyone else did.

Furthermore, as I discover more, this eyewitness says that Zimmerman's killing was NOT in self-defense...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=08Rf4G0JOOk#t=105s

Please, keep discovering more...

Originally Posted by TheL8Elvis
Yes, Mary Cutcher. She is 911 call number 6 on the City of sanford site.

MC: "it's a black guy."
Dispatcher: "What do you mean, it's a black guy? that got shot?"
MC: "I don't know"
...
MC: Theres a black guy standing up over him.
 
For proving that she can hear someone screaming nearby even if she can't see them?
No, for claiming to be able to tell which of 2 people were screaming without seeing them.

I can do it too. How much are we going to bet on this? You and me?
You can tell which of 2 strangers are screaming just from the sound of their voices? Talk to Randi, he has the $1 million. All I can offer you is an avatar bet.

Actually here's an eyewitness who says that she KNOWS it was NOT self-defense.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=08Rf4G0JOOk#t=105s
That's the same damned witness!!!

No, I'm claiming that it's reasonable to confront someone who you don't know who has been staring at you, following you in a car, obstructing your path, speaking about you to someone on the phone, then gets out of their car and chases you when you try to get away from them. Furthermore, when you have done nothing wrong and don't know them, the person following, obstructing, and then chasing you is the aggressor who has initiated the situation and is escalating it.
And that's how things spiral out of control.
 
That's the same witness who admits she didn't actually see the person shouting, only heard it. The one who gave different stories to the police than she did to the press. Who on the 911 call thought Zimmerman was black and couldn't tell what race Martin was.

That's who you're going to rest your case on?
She told the police that she KNEW it was not Self-Defense after the fact, not during the heat of the moment. That means that she had time to review what happened and collect her thoughts, very different from what she says during the call when the incident isn't even finished. Furthermore, the Burden of Proof is on you and your little Neighborhood Watchman child-killer. He's in trouble as are you if you think you can establish his case.
 
She said she KNOWS it was not self-defense. That's a pretty strong statement from a witness. And since the Burden of Proof is on Zimmerman (affirmative defense), this means he's going to be in a lot of trouble come court-time.

Go to the CT forum, there are people who KNOW that Kennedy is alive and well, swimming in Loch Ness after the martian brain transplant.

That's just people who are mentally ill. Then you have lesser social disorders where people will lie to get attention.
 
She said she KNOWS it was not self-defense. That's a pretty strong statement from a witness. And since the Burden of Proof is on Zimmerman (affirmative defense), this means he's going to be in a lot of trouble come court-time.

She said she knows it's not self defense because she didn't hear punching or fighting. Then went on to say that even if there was fighting, Trayvon must have been defending himself. Strong assertions mean nothing when you have no evidence or reasoning for those assertions beyong a mere feeling.
 
Please, keep discovering more...
Discover what I just said. Her statement of knowing the situation came after she had time to review what happened and collect her thoughts, which is different from a witnesses perspective when the incident is ongoing. Furthermore, why don't you discover where the Burden of Proof is in this case, then you realize that this little lady is quite the problem for you and your Georgie-boy.
 
Go to the CT forum, there are people who KNOW that Kennedy is alive and well, swimming in Loch Ness after the martian brain transplant.

That's just people who are mentally ill. Then you have lesser social disorders where people will lie to get attention.
Those are extraordinary claims from non-eye-witnesses that contradict common sense. This is not.
 
Discover what I just said. Her statement of knowing the situation came after she had time to review what happened and collect her thoughts, which is different from a witnesses perspective when the incident is ongoing. Furthermore, why don't you discover where the Burden of Proof is in this case, then you realize that this little lady is quite the problem for you and your Georgie-boy.
If that's the best the prosecution has to offer Zimmerman walks.
 
EGarrett please stop "skimming" things and pick and choose bits and pieces of information, sometimes wrongly, to fit into your preconceived theory. Read carefully and analyze critically. Otherwise, just please stop posting cause it's painful.
 
Those are extraordinary claims from non-eye-witnesses that contradict common sense. This is not.
She's not an eyewitness to the fight or the screams. She saw nothing until after Martin was dead.
 
Is it time for a WTF? Last September? Five months?

Looking less like an experienced Captain of the Watch and more like gung-ho rookie.
He wasn't even a rookie, since he was never allowed into the academy. The informational citizens program he went to doesn't count.

He was not part of the offical Neighborhood Watch program. They prohibit just about everything he did.

According to the police, he was told at that meeting what he could *not* do, and just decided to make himself a position and title.
 
Those are extraordinary claims from non-eye-witnesses that contradict common sense. This is not.

No, this is a lady who thinks she heard something, which became another something after she thought about it awhile (and watched TV news). It's only strong evidence because it supports a scenario you want to be true because you appear to have an axe to grind.
 
Well from what I've looked up, Zimmerman has the burden of proof to show that Martin actually attacked him first, which is going to be an uphill battle given his aggravated speech and aggressive pursuit of Martin while Martin was attempting to flee. Furthermore he apparently had the gun in a visible holster while pursuing Martin, which would actually mean that Martin was justified even if Martin attacked him first.

That being said, I have been doing my amateur google-legal research, and in regards to sentencing, it should be noted that I've found that in Florida, the crime will apparently be elevated to the next degree because a firearm was involved, and on top of that it involves a child and actual aggressive behavior by the killer, in which case I think we're starting with a baseline of voluntary manslaughter that can end-up as second-degree murder. Which is life in prison.

Bye-bye Georgie. It's not looking good.

I don't see him getting life in Florida. (Full disclosure, I was born in Florida, lived and worked there a good portion of my life, have family there including in this area and a brother on the bench in another part of the state.)

It's definitely a possibility, but if I had to bet today, I wouldn't go that way.

Placing the line in this case is going to be difficult... or lines, I should say, because there's more than one.

GZ was within his rights to carry a firearm, within his rights to be in a neighborhood watch, and within his rights to walk up to someone who's also walking in his neighborhood and ask if he lives around there, and quite frankly also within his rights to be an ******* about it.

And this is true, even though the dispatcher told him that "we don't need you to" go walking up to TM and talk to him. GZ wasn't told not to do it, just that it wasn't necessary. This kind of detail becomes extremely important in trials, where juries find themselves having to consider everyone's plausible point of view as things unfold.

TM was within his rights, of course, to be walking down the street with a bag of skittles and a can of AIT with a hoodie on in the rain.

He might have been something of a punk, but even if so, that's not anything GZ would be aware of, and his claim to 911 that he believed TM might have been "on drugs" is suspect at best, but maybe he believed it.

So now we've got a situation where both parties are plausibly acting within the law.

Whatever happened out there on the sidewalk that night, we've at some point got 911 calls from neighbors about a fight, someone's hollering, there's a gunshot, and the hollering stops.

By all accounts, GZ initiated the contact, and did nothing illegal in the process. They argue, also not illegal. Then a fistfight breaks out.

The SYG law can now be argued both ways.

TM is not here to give his side of things, so we cannot discount the possibility that he might have testified that GZ initially turned the argument into a fistfight... and since GZ is much larger than TM and was pursuing him and was armed, and was complaining about how they "always get away", that's entirely plausible... so despite GZ's tesimony, there's reasonable doubt about who started the fisticuffs.

So let's say it was TM. There's reasonable doubt, so we presume innocence and hypothesize that it was TM who punched first.

There are now 2 questions in play:

1. Does TM have a SYG right to stand his ground and attempt to disable GZ if he believes GZ is an immediate physical threat to him? (And it's hard to imagine that any 17yo his size would not perceive GZ under those circumstances as a threat.)

If GZ is justified in shooting TM, then by their own argument, they're admitting that TM had a right to attempt to physically disable GZ.

2. Does GZ at that point have a SYG right to stop TM from beating him?

Well, by the same token, if it's reasonable to believe that TM had a SYG right to attempt to disable GZ, then the same must now be true of GZ with respect to TM.

And that's what makes this a tricky case.

You mention life, there's also a potential for an acquittal for precisely these reasons.

My guess is that the deciding factor will be the fact that GZ initiated the confrontation, with a loaded weapon at his disposal, in a manner that was likely (and indeed calculated) to make TM fearful.

So a conviction, but manslaughter, less than life, because it was in some way reasonable for GZ to have a good faith belief that he was acting legally, given the actual language of the law -- if it takes us this long to hash it all out at leisure, how can we expect him to parse it in a few minutes?
 
No, for claiming to be able to tell which of 2 people were screaming without seeing them.
Which isn't relevant to the point that she can hear things even if she can't see them.

You can tell which of 2 strangers are screaming just from the sound of their voices? Talk to Randi, he has the $1 million. All I can offer you is an avatar bet.
Completely irrelevant. Read what I said again.

That's the same damned witness!!!
Also irrelevant. What you claimed about what was said remains invalid no matter who said it. Seeing her actual testimony only adds another layer of problems, which is that she collected herself and stated unequivocally that she knows it was not self-defense.

And that's how things spiral out of control.
If you can't escape someone, you don't have a choice. And the person refusing to let you escape is the one starting it.
 
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