Trayvon Martin, Vigilante Justice

[Peacock]

Well if it was Zimmerman, it sure sounds like he was in fear of his life. The screaming went on for almost a minute on the tape, probably longer before the call was made.

 

[Information Analyst]

the part where he left out Zim getting his nose broken, getting pummeled on the ground, yelling for help for 40 seconds, then finally brandishing his gun as a last resort.

0:01 "Ow!"
0:02 "Help!"
0:03 "Ow!"
0:04 "Help!"
0:05 "Ow!"
0:06 "Help!"
0:07 "Ow!"
0:08 "Help!"
0:09 "Ow!"
0:10 "Help!"
0:11 "Ow!"
0:12 "Help!"
0:13 "Ow!"
0:14 "Help!"
0:15 "Ow!"
0:16 "Help!"
0:17 "Ow!"
0:18 "Help!"
0:19 "Ow!"
0:20 "Help!"
0:21 "Ow!"
0:22 "Help!"
0:23 "Ow!"
0:24 "Help!"
0:25 "Ow!"
0:26 "Help!"
0:27 "Ow!"
0:28 "Help!"
0:29 "Ow!"
0:30 "Help!"
0:31 "Ow!"
0:32 "Help!"
0:33 "Ow!"
0:34 "Help!"
0:35 "Ow!"
0:36 "Help!"
0:37 "Ow!"
0:38 "Help!"
0:39 "Ow!"
0:40 Bang!

Really?!

 

[TheL8Elvis]

I don't know how you came to the conclusion that Zimmerman moved the body. Is that something new?

I threw out as one speculation that perhaps TM was on top of GZ, pounding him, the gun came into play (however) and GZ shot him.
That led to blood splatter, bullet physics, etc.

Then , to account for Mary Cutcher saying ' he was straddling TM, hands on his back' I postulated that perhaps GZ rolled TM off of him after he was shot, and rolled over on him in the process, and thats how TM was on his chest, and GZ was straddling him.

This relies on lots of speculations and assumptions, many of which can get tossed when we have forensics evidence. But I think it's relevant to try to determine what scenarios are possible/plausible.

 

[Information Analyst]

Yeah, if you are talking about some other incident...

Gee, I wonder why I said "version"? As in, there's more than one...

When Martin walked up to Zimmerman and asked why he was following him, I think that was the initiation of "non-physical contact", whatever that means...

(Note that I said "I think". This does not mean I am stating a fact. It means I am stating my opinion. I'll bet someone still responds as if I said it was a fact.)

This thread is exasperating.

You don't know that "Martin walked up to Zimmerman" and not the other way around.

 

[quadraginta]

According to this, the lead homicide detective filed an affidavit saying he disbelieved Zimmerman's story and wanted to charge him with manslaughter, but the State's Attorney's office refused to did not file charges at that time, saying there was insufficient evidence.
<snip>

Does that have a different implication when I change the phrasing?

Ouch, why the SA made that choice will be an interesting bit of speculation. Sounds like the SA made the call.

What do you think?

Is it possible we could be finding fault with the SA for not rushing to judgement?

It's been pointed out earlier in this thread, but I'll reiterate for the benefit of those who may have missed it.

If the state goes after Zimmerman without all their ducks in a row and he is found not guilty there won't be another chance after better evidence is put together. The state only gets one bite at that apple.

Just because they didn't charge him that day doesn't mean they had made up their minds. I have not seen any documentation from the SA office suggesting that they had decided no charges would be forthcoming at all.

Did I miss that part?

 

[TheL8Elvis]

He also shot and killed an unarmed teenager who was walking home from the 711 with candy.

George zimmerman, son of a VA Magistrate and who was a student attending a local college, admitted to shooting a 17 year old black male in self defense after he was assualted by the tattooed youth, who was currently staying with his divorced father in Sanford while serving a drug related suspension from school.

There, I assume no one has a problem with that factual statement either ?

 

[LTC8K6]

You don't know that "Martin walked up to Zimmerman" and not the other way around.

I told you someone would do it!

 

[Information Analyst]

Thanks for the added times. It is helpful.

I think if the car were next to the footpath, that would be 5 minutes of being in that area around the footpath and in-between the first set of condos.

It made much more sense to me that the first few minutes was walking behind TM on Twin trees, and losing him when he went down the sidewalk, and perhaps turned the corner.

I wish they would release info that tells us where the car was. That would make it clear if GZ tried to cut him off or get in front of him.

At a maximum there's 6m 26s between the start of Zimmerman's call, and the end of Martin's. There's no engine sound at the start of Zimmerman's, so he'd already parked up at that point. However, it's only after 2m 10s that Zimmerman exits the vehicles, so between then and the end of Martin's call it's 4m 16s at the very most, probably less. Zimmerman needs to be parked as far up as the crossing for it to take Martin over a minute to cover more than 75 metres and be still "approaching" Zimmerman there.

 

[LTC8K6]

George zimmerman, son of a VA Magistrate and who was a student attending a local college to study criminal justice, admitted to shooting 17 year old black male in self defense after he was assualted by the tattooed youth, who was currently serving a drug related suspension from school.

There, I assume no one has a problem with that factual statement either ?

No...

George Zimmerman, murderous racist white fat boy, went looking for innocent black boys to shoot...

You need to work something like that in there.

 

[varwoche]

When Martin walked up to Zimmerman...

You don't know that "Martin walked up to Zimmerman" and not the other way around.

it's not like facts matter or anything...

Oops, Super Skeptic caught making stuff up. Exasperating, isn't it?

 

[LTC8K6]

Oops, Super Skeptic caught making stuff up. Exasperating, isn't it?

That's two!

Evidently this part of my post was not readable by either of you:

(Note that I said "I think". This does not mean I am stating a fact. It means I am stating my opinion. I'll bet someone still responds as if I said it was a fact.)

 

[varwoche]

I told you someone would do it!

You need to wrote more clearly if you wish to avoid miscommunication.

 

[LTC8K6]

You need to wrote more clearly if you wish to avoid miscommunication.

Two and a half!

(Note that I said "I think". This does not mean I am stating a fact. It means I am stating my opinion. I'll bet someone still responds as if I said it was a fact.)

 

[TheL8Elvis]

Not sure if this has been examined already, but in this recording of a 911 tape you can hear somebody screaming help for a long time before the sound of a gun cuts it off rather abruptly. I suppose it could have been either of them, but to me it sounds like someone screaming for their lives after a gun is being pointed at them.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hj4RHJ0taoc

http://articles.orlandosentinel.com..._1_miami-schools-punch-unarmed-black-teenager

Several witnesses heard those cries, and there has been a dispute about whether they came from Zimmerman or Trayvon.

Lawyers for Trayvon's family say it was Trayvon, but police say their evidence indicates it was Zimmerman.

 

[leftysergeant]

Who was beating the crap out of him for following him?

Beating the crap out of a stalker with a gun is not illegal. Interfering with Martin's movements was.

 

[TheL8Elvis]

At a maximum there's 6m 26s between the start of Zimmerman's call, and the end of Martin's. There's no engine sound at the start of Zimmerman's, so he'd already parked up at that point. However, it's only after 2m 10s that Zimmerman exits the vehicles, so between then and the end of Martin's call it's 4m 16s at the very most, probably less. Zimmerman needs to be parked as far up as the crossing for it to take Martin over a minute to cover more than 75 metres and be still "approaching" Zimmerman there.

Ok - I may have to take a break and go time myself strolling down the street or something. Yours may be the more realistic scenario.

 

[Information Analyst]

OK, I'm going to paint a picture.

Zimmerman leaves his home, driving clockwise around Retreat View Circle, and stops at the crossing in front of the Clubhouse. On or about to use the crossing is Martin. Maybe he's dawdling or not moving fast enough for Zimmerman's liking. Zimmerman does not recognise him. Maybe they mutually eyeball each other, maybe not. Zimmerman see Martin head on to Twin Trees Lane, so he takes a snap decision to check this unknown youth out. He turns right onto Twin Trees Lane, perhaps driving slowly. As they pass, maybe their eyes meet (again), but either way Martin realises that the vehicle at the crossing now seems to be shadowing him, so he slows down a bit (more).

Zimmerman drives up to the crossing by the cut-through on Twin Trees Lane and stops, switching off his engine. He calls the police. He continues to watch for Martin, either by twisting around in his seat, or using his mirrors.

Martin now comes around the left hand bend in Twin Trees Lane, and sees that the mysterious vehicle has stopped about 75 metres ahead of him, but the driver is not getting out, and may appear to be watching him. Not quite sure what's going on, he may slow down more or even stop walking. He looks around to see if anyone else is about. The vehicle stays where it is, and Martin decides to carry on walking, but not too quickly, hoping the vehicle will drive off before he reaches it.

Zimmerman tells the police that the stranger is acting funny, "looking at all the houses," and then that he is, "coming to check me out."

Martin approaches the vehicle, then cuts across the crossing, and into the cut-through, speeding up in the knowledge that the vehicle can't follow, and the driver would have to get out and follow on foot. He calls his girlfriend.

Zimmerman tells the police that Martin is running, and gets out of his vehicle, following Martin, who he loses sight of behind the buildings as he (Martin) goes into the cut-through. He tells the police that Martin is heading for the "back entrance."

Martin turns onto the path between the houses. He knows he's about 150 metres from where he is staying, and can either run or hide. He choses the latter and manages to find some sort of cover.

Zimmerman comes in via the cut-through and looks down the wide gap between the houses, pausing for a few moments to satisfy himself that Martin is not running down there. Already convinced that Martin was already heading for the back entrance, he continues across the cut-through to Retreat View Circle, where he finds that Martin is not in sight there, either. Still on the phone to the police, he says he doesn't want to give him home address because, "I don't know where this kid is," i.e. he thinks he may be hiding within earshot. He stays where he is whilst directing to police to where his vehicle is. He ends the call to the police and then looks around some more to see if Martin is hiding, but doesn't see anything. He may actually walk some way down Retreat View Circle in this process.

Meanwhile, Martin - still on the phone to his girlfriend - is still hiding. He may have seen Zimmerman as he passed through to Retreat View Circle, but certainly cannot see him now. He doesn't tell his girlfriend he was hiding, because... well... he'll sound like a wimp. Eventually he convinces himself that Zimmerman is not coming back, so emerges from his hiding place.

Zimmerman, having satisfied himself that Martin is not anywhere on Retreat View Circle, heads back to his vehicle via the cut-through. In the process, he spots Martin again between the houses heading south to where is is staying, and approaches him. Martin either sees Zimmerman, because he keeps looking behind him to be sure, or he hears footsteps behind. He asks Zimmerman why he's following him. Zimmerman asks what he's doing there....

 

[Professor Yaffle]

http://articles.orlandosentinel.com..._1_miami-schools-punch-unarmed-black-teenager

Several witnesses heard those cries, and there has been a dispute about whether they came from Zimmerman or Trayvon.

Lawyers for Trayvon's family say it was Trayvon, but police say their evidence indicates it was Zimmerman.

And one witness was "corrected" by the police when she said it was Martin screaming.

 

[LTC8K6]

Beating the crap out of a stalker with a gun is not illegal. Interfering with Martin's movements was.

Yes, but if you would just read the posts, you'd see that I was just following the thread, and not making a serious post.

Besides, your comment is silly. Shooting someone who is beating the crap out of you is legal.

I know it's hard not to knee jerk a post out of context, but this is the JREF board, and we have higher expectations, although I admit that this thread is lowering them.

(I've had you on ignore since early on, but I accidentally clicked on this post.)

 

[LTC8K6]

And one witness was "corrected" by the police when she said it was Martin screaming.

Yes, likely because of the eye-witness. I do like the quotation marks, though.