Trayvon Martin, Vigilante Justice

[WildCat]

Does some clause in Florida's Stand Your Ground law allow blocking someone's path and grabbing them if they try to pass?

You have evidence that this happened?

If you listen to George Zimmermann's 911 call, it sounds like his goal is to make sure this ******* doesn't get away like all the others.

And the way to do that is to detain someone merely for looking suspicious? I'm sorry, it doesn't "sound like" that at all to me, and there's no evidence of it either. Not even the girl's version has Zimmerman telling him to stop, and her claim of Zimmerman pushing Martin is simply impossible to infer from a phone call.

 

[WildCat]

"Why are you following me?" would be more consistant with someone's being upset with being followed for no good reason.

And it's not at all consistent with Zimmerman chasing him down to detain him.

 

[TheL8Elvis]

proposed map of events

Ok - here is my attempt at mapping out according to 911 call.

If there are glaring mistakes, it is not due to any agenda, just trying to visualize what happened.

Feel free to point out where I have gone wrong.

 

[RandFan]

Ok - here is my attempt at mapping out according to 911 call.

If there are glaring mistakes, it is not due to any agenda, just trying to visualize what happened.

Feel free to point out where I have gone wrong.

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/imagehosting/thum_500444f71cc7a02395.jpg

Thank you.

 

[Checkmite]

And it's not at all consistent with Zimmerman chasing him down to detain him.

If Zimmerman hadn't chased him down how could Martin have even had the opportunity to ask why Zimmerman was following him? Zimmerman not only had to follow, but do so faster than Martin was walking in order to catch up to him.

 

[TheL8Elvis]

"Why are you following me?" would be more consistant with someone's being upset with being followed for no good reason.

And it's not at all consistent with Zimmerman chasing him down to detain him.

So, at least we get Lefty to admit that GZ was following TM. Just as he said he was on the 911 call. Shocking

 

[RandFan]

Ok - here is my attempt at mapping out according to 911 call.

Given that that the map provided by TheL8Elvis is correct and given that Martin was the aggressor can someone provide a narrative that makes sense of the data? Does Martin doubling back make sense? Does Martin hiding make sense? Does GZ getting out of his truck to check road signs make sense?

 

[varwoche]

It's simply bizarre to lump in Jesse Jackson with people on this board - or either group with a useless fanatic group like the New Black Panthers.

Indeed. When one's brush is the size of a street sweeper, nuance is a bit of a challenge.

 

[TheL8Elvis]

If Zimmerman hadn't chased him down how could Martin have even had the opportunity to ask why Zimmerman was following him? Zimmerman not only had to follow, but do so faster than Martin was walking in order to catch up to him.

Yes, that's one possible scenario.

We already have GZ reporting that TM was walking slow. I have no problem believing that, and assuming he was walking very slowly because he was on the phone with his GF. Perhaps the closer he got , the slower he walked because he was still on the phone ?

So GM likely does not have to be walking incredibly fast to 'catch up.'

Do you find this scenario unrealistic or implausible in any way ?

It's also entirely possible TM got irritated at being followed and stopped to see if he was still being followed. Or he felt comfortable because he was close enough to home. There are lots of possibilities.

 

[TheL8Elvis]

Given that that the map provided by TheL8Elvis is correct and given that Martin was the aggressor can someone provide a narrative that makes sense of the data? Does Martin doubling back make sense? Does Martin hiding make sense? Does GZ getting out of his truck to check road signs make sense?

He never got of of his truck to check road signs. The 'I don't know the address' comes from below, I believe.

I put the truck where i did based on this:

Zimmerman: If they come in through the gate, tell them to go straight past the club house, and uh, straight past the club house and make a left, and then they go past the mailboxes, that's my truck...

Dispatcher: What address are you parked in front of?

Zimmerman: I don't know, it's a cut through so I don't know the address

That's where he parked before he was huffing and puffing into the phone, where we assume he was following TM on foot.

 

[sgtbaker]

Yes, that's one possible scenario.

We already have GZ reporting that TM was walking slow. I have no problem believing that, and assuming he was walking very slowly because he was on the phone with his GF. Perhaps the closer he got , the slower he walked because he was still on the phone ?

So GM likely does not have to be walking incredibly fast to 'catch up.'

Do you find this scenario unrealistic or implausible in any way ?

It's also entirely possible TM got irritated at being followed and stopped to see if he was still being followed. Or he felt comfortable because he was close enough to home. There are lots of possibilities.

According to the GZ recorded call, GZ first reports Martin running and states that he doesn't know where Martin is (info only available in the full 4+ minute call, edited out of the 2+ minute call). There is zero evidence that GA ever "caught up" to TM.

 

[NoahFence]

I can't tell if this is a serious post or mockery. Just in case it's serious... That's a quote from Jessie Jackson -- far too indirect of a source to be informative.

The absolute worst case scenario is to have Jackson and Sharpton inject themselves in these cases. They care not one lick for the victim. They're in it for themselves.

Zimmerman: I don't know, it's a cut through so I don't know the address

Isn't he a neighborhood watch guy?

 

[Checkmite]

This makes more sense to me than most scenarios I've seen proposed so far.

I only know what I read in the papers, and that leaves me utterly confused.



In the county where my brother in law is a cop, they just put a guy in jail for life, no parole, for putting bullets into the heads of three young ladies. I note the lack of national outrage for that case. This happened recently, and came up in conversation last year when I was in town for a family funeral.

I note the lack of national outrage.

http://www.caller.com/news/2012/mar/22/corpus-christi-man-pleads-guilty-to-killing-gets/

RIP, ladies. For all of your strengths and your weaknesses, what ever future you had ended when you ran into the wrong jerkoff on the wrong night.

The rest of America, and the media, doesn't give a flying crap about you.

In a place where the national spotlight does not shine, some mothers are still weeping.

I'm sure the fact that that suspect was actually arrested and sentenced has nothing to do with why the "national" reaction to that case differs from this one.

 

[Toontown]

Indeed. When one's brush is the size of a street sweeper, nuance is a bit of a challenge.

So now I'm a broad-brush-boy? Prove it.

Unlike you, I've supported my claim about Jackson's tendency to rush to judgement.

 

[TheL8Elvis]

According to the GZ recorded call, GZ first reports Martin running and states that he doesn't know where Martin is (info only available in the full 4+ minute call, edited out of the 2+ minute call). There is zero evidence that GA ever "caught up" to TM.

Well ... he 'caught up' to him to the extent that they could have the exchange according to the GF:Why are you following me/What are you doing here

Also, the GF says TM said to his GF he would not run, but he would 'walk faster' - so I assume that's what GZ reports as 'running'

 

[sgtbaker]

Yes, that's one possible scenario.

We already have GZ reporting that TM was walking slow. I have no problem believing that, and assuming he was walking very slowly because he was on the phone with his GF. Perhaps the closer he got , the slower he walked because he was still on the phone ?

So GM likely does not have to be walking incredibly fast to 'catch up.'

Do you find this scenario unrealistic or implausible in any way ?

It's also entirely possible TM got irritated at being followed and stopped to see if he was still being followed. Or he felt comfortable because he was close enough to home. There are lots of possibilities.

I'm sure the fact that that suspect was actually arrested and sentenced has nothing to do with why the "national" reaction to that case differs from this one.

Yeah, except the outrage and accusations started long before the police finished their investigation.

 

[crimresearch]

So now I'm a broad-brush-boy? Prove it.

Unlike you, I've supported my claim about Jackson's tendency to rush to judgement.

Are you claiming to be the person who first linked to the Jackson quote, only cited the cherry picked bits, and declared the whole forum equally worthless?

Because I thought multiple accounts weren't allowed.

And why would Varwoche have to support his claim that Jackson isn't a valid source? That's axiomatic...

 

[Kestrel]

He never got of of his truck to check road signs. The 'I don't know the address' comes from below, I believe.

I put the truck where i did based on this:

Zimmerman: If they come in through the gate, tell them to go straight past the club house, and uh, straight past the club house and make a left, and then they go past the mailboxes, that's my truck...

Dispatcher: What address are you parked in front of?

Zimmerman: I don't know, it's a cut through so I don't know the address

That's where he parked before he was huffing and puffing into the phone, where we assume he was following TM on foot.

At one point toward the end of the call, you can hear some crunching noises. It sounds to me like GZ walking across gravel or wood chips instead of on the paved path. Does this give us a clue about where GZ was walking at that time?

 

[RandFan]

He never got of of his truck to check road signs. The 'I don't know the address' comes from below, I believe.

I put the truck where i did based on this:

Zimmerman: If they come in through the gate, tell them to go straight past the club house, and uh, straight past the club house and make a left, and then they go past the mailboxes, that's my truck...

Dispatcher: What address are you parked in front of?

Zimmerman: I don't know, it's a cut through so I don't know the address

That's where he parked before he was huffing and puffing into the phone, where we assume he was following TM on foot.

Thanks.

 

[sgtbaker]

Well ... he 'caught up' to him to the extent that they could have the exchange according to the GF:Why are you following me/What are you doing here

Also, the GF says TM said to his GF he would not run, but he would 'walk faster' - so I assume that's what GZ reports as 'running'

Again, the girlfriends account showed up three weeks late to the game.
Zimmerman's account:
TM: Do you have a problem?
GZ: No
TM: You do now.(assault begins.) This was in the initial police report. Conveniently not release until this morning... a month later.