Trayvon Martin, Vigilante Justice

[Dancing David]

On one side, we have Trayvon's mother saying, "He would never do that," in response to the accusation that Trayvon assaulted Zimmerman. Zimmerman's past violent altercations (from seven years ago) are brought up as evidence that Zimmerman has violent tendancies. These seems completely acceptable to everyone. Now, I have said before that pictures of gold teeth and tattoos, even a possible tough guy internet identity are irrelavent. However, if Zimmerman's shoving match with a police officer is evidence that Zimmerman is capable of getting into a physical altercation, I think alleged swinging on a bus driver is certainly relavent to the question of whether or not Trayvon is capable of getting into a physical altercation, as well.

I always assumed Zimmerman's history would not make it through discovery. Same for Trayvon's history.

 

[Dancing David]

According to his attorney, he did go to the hospital, the next day. You also have to remember that adrenaline is a natural pain killer. The real pain might not have set in until hours later. It's very typical for people to deny medical treatment, on the spot but once the adrenaline wears off and the pain sets in, they end up going, anyway.

Now that makes more sense.

 

[LTC8K6]

Then that raises the question as to why Zimmerman was in the location he was, and how he end up parked up on Twin Trees Lane long enough to become aware and then suspicious of Martin, plus the length of the phone call to the police:

[qimg]http://www.nickcooper.org.uk/personal/images/jref/tm_aerial.jpg[/qimg]

The red line shows Martin's probable route back to where he was staying (blue marker bottom-right); the small purple rectangle is the approximate position of Zimmerman's vehicle (although it may have been slightly further to the right). The blue marker slightly obscured by the red route line is where the shooting took place, and Zimmerman's house is the blue marker bottom-left.

Let's assume that Zimerman was "driving back from the store." If he came in the "back entrance" (bottom-right), the obvious route would be to take a left onto Retreat View Circle, and then follow it round to his home. Alternatively, he may have driven straight across to the lower part of Twin Trees Lane, then along Long Oak Way, and a left onto Retreat View Circle. Either way, he wouldn't have been anyway near where his vehicle ended up.

On the other hand, if he came in the "main entrance" (top), you'd assume the most obvious route would be to take a right onto Retreat View Circle, and follow it round. Alternatively, he could have driven straigth across, onto Twin Trees Lane, then Long Oak Way, and then the last bit of Retreat View Circle. The latter is a slightly longer route, and is the only one that would put Zimmerman where he ended up, but it still raises questions.

Most importantly, Zimmerman's vehicle would have been facing away from the direction Martin was approaching from, on the opposite side of the road. This would mean that Zimmerman would either have to be turning round to watch Martin, or he was using his mirrors to observe him - either being details missing from what we know Zimmerman has said.

One possible explanation is that Zimmerman may have first spotted Martin walking onto Twin Trees Lane as he (Zimmerman) drove in the main entrance. That may have caused him to carry on to Twin Trees Lane himself (rather than turning onto Retreat View Circle), and then park up there ahead of Martin.

It really doesn't seem credible that Zimmerman just happened to have stopped where he did on Twin Trees Lane (for no explained reason), just as Martin appeared. Either he was parked up there specifically looking out for the burglars he was so concerned about, or he spotted Martin earlier and changed his route and stopped to observe him further. Both put a very different slant on Zimmerman's actions than him innocently "driving back from the store."

Did you consider the possibility that the story about Martin's walk is incorrect/inaccurate?

 

[Dancing David]

"Zimmerman told police he had killed him. Shot him in the back of the head in self-defense."

Well, that's it then. In the back of the head. That couldn't be self defense.

http://webcache.googleusercontent.c...e-convenience-store+&cd=4&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us

Oh my, not exactly factual, unless the coroner's report agrees.

 

[Dancing David]

I used to teach in a public middle school in TX, and this sort of language was completely typical of the male and female students, including both the trouble makers and the generally well-behaved kids who were most certainly not in gangs. I imagine it's typical of urban high school students as well. I don't regard it as probative of whether Martin was in a gang.

I agree, the wannabe and fantasy factor are very high.

 

[Dancing David]

This makes more sense to me than most scenarios I've seen proposed so far.

I only know what I read in the papers, and that leaves me utterly confused.



In the county where my brother in law is a cop, they just put a guy in jail for life, no parole, for putting bullets into the heads of three young ladies. I note the lack of national outrage for that case. This happened recently, and came up in conversation last year when I was in town for a family funeral.

I note the lack of national outrage.

http://www.caller.com/news/2012/mar/22/corpus-christi-man-pleads-guilty-to-killing-gets/

RIP, ladies. For all of your strengths and your weaknesses, what ever future you had ended when you ran into the wrong jerkoff on the wrong night.

The rest of America, and the media, doesn't give a flying crap about you.

In a place where the national spotlight does not shine, some mothers are still weeping.

I agree, my issue is the local Do Gooder Brigade, they come out and march whenever the they think the police have done something wrong, they never ever protest the drive bys or the other shootings. We have about a shooting every other month of some sort, house or cars hit.
Women raped in group events in people yards and garages but the Dogooders Brigade never marches about that, they never hold a vigil for a driveby.

We have too many deaths in our society, too many incidents of violence.

 

[Dancing David]

Wow, Jesse Jackson has really gone off the rails here. You'd think he'd have learned a thing or 2 after the Duke lacrosse fiasco.

Who the hell told him that crap?

Locally he got stupid over gang violence at a football game in Decatur and tried to pretend it was some sort of injsustice, it wasn't, it was a gang fight.

 

[Resume]

Locally he got stupid over gang violence at a football game in Decatur and tried to pretend it was some sort of injsustice, it wasn't, it was a gang fight.

He (Jackson) and Al Sharpton, are what Hitchens once termed religious entrepreneurs.

 

[Dancing David]

mirepoix:
n.
A seasoning composed of finely diced sautéed vegetables and herbs and sometimes diced ham, bacon, or salt pork

 

[Information Analyst]

Did you consider the possibility that the story about Martin's walk is incorrect/inaccurate?

In what way?

 

[LTC8K6]

In what way?

What 7-Eleven, or other convenience store, did Martin actually visit? Has that been reported?

If we question Zimmerman's movements, we should probably question Martin's as well.

Google shows the nearest store to be a Murphy's, but maybe the info is out of date? Or maybe people just say 7-Eleven as a generic term?

 

[brodski]

I agree, my issue is the local Do Gooder Brigade, they come out and march whenever the they think the police have done something wrong, they never ever protest the drive bys or the other shootings. We have about a shooting every other month of some sort, house or cars hit.
Women raped in group events in people yards and garages but the Dogooders Brigade never marches about that, they never hold a vigil for a driveby.

We have too many deaths in our society, too many incidents of violence.

The role of the police is to deal with violent crime, the police are meant to be accountable to the public, criminals are meant to be accountable through the criminal justice system. If the police screw up and/ or are ignoring crimes, then it's perfectly legitimate to protest that through the media and elsewhere. Where the police and the criminal justice system are doing their jobs, as in the case Darth Rotor highlighted, why would there be a protest?

 

[Information Analyst]

What 7-Eleven, or other convenience store, did Martin actually visit? Has that been reported?

If we question Zimmerman's movements, we should probably question Martin's as well.

Google shows the nearest store to be a Murphy's, but maybe the info is out of date? Or maybe people just say 7-Eleven as a generic term?

Theer are only two entrances to the development, and his route seems consistent with the main one, as indeed are Zimmerman's movements in the only way him being where he ended up makes sense. Zimmerman had lived there several years; Martin was essentially a visitor. Regardless of the proximity to the "back entrance" to where he was staying, he may not be familiar with what stores arer accessible that way, say if he had only ever been driven in or out via the main entrance.

 

[LTC8K6]

Martin would have stayed there a few times, so I think he'd have been familiar with the complex and the area.

I have had no luck finding out which store Martin or Zimmerman visited.

Wouldn't it be curious if it was the same store?

This would open the possibility of the two encountering each other much earlier, or the possibility of Zimmerman "noticing" Martin earlier.

At the store, or along the same route possibly.

 

[Information Analyst]

Martin would have stayed there a few times, so I think he'd have been familiar with the complex and the area.

I don't think that's a given. People tend to be aware of the routes they are familair with, and may not be of other areas, even if nearby. In places I've lived, I've known what shops there are between there and the bus stops or railway/Underground stations I've used, but not necessarily in the "opposite" direction. In one place, I know there were three separate parades of shops within walking distance of my flat, but I only ever used two of them, even though the third was as close as one of the others.

I have had no luck finding out which store Martin or Zimmerman visited.

Wouldn't it be curious if it was the same store?

This would open the possibility of the two encountering each other much earlier, or the possibility of Zimmerman "noticing" Martin earlier.

At the store, or along the same route possibly.

I had thought that maybe Zimmerman saw Martin leaving while he was also on his way out, and that for whatever reason they both ended up returning at the same time, as well. That might give Zimmerman more reason to think Martin was "hanging around," but instead he seems to have painted the encounter as one random event.

 

[TheL8Elvis]

Theer are only two entrances to the development, and his route seems consistent with the main one, as indeed are Zimmerman's movements in the only way him being where he ended up makes sense. Zimmerman had lived there several years; Martin was essentially a visitor. Regardless of the proximity to the "back entrance" to where he was staying, he may not be familiar with what stores arer accessible that way, say if he had only ever been driven in or out via the main entrance.

One map in the thread shows 7-11 to the west of the subdivision, and implied that the best path is out the main (north) entrance, hang a left on Oregon avenue.

 

[WildCat]

Why did Zimmerman claim that Trayvon went for his gun?

Because he discovered it while they were fighting.

 

[bonzombiekitty]

Why did Zimmerman claim that Trayvon went for his gun?

I might go after someone's gun if I got into a tussle with them and then noticed the gun. I might think that it's better that I get the gun before the other person gets the gun. If I saw the gun beforehand, I wouldn't have gotten in the fight in the first place.

There was certainly a fight of some sort, and I doubt Zimmerman played no part in actually starting the fight. I don't think Martin attacked Zimmerman out of the blue while Zimmerman's back was turned. Due to the lack of reports of anything illegal being found on Martin, it doesn't make much sense for Martin to be worried about the police coming and thus attempted to stop Zimmerman from contacting the police (as I have seen suggested). If Martin did actually throw the first punch, I'm more inclined to believe that the two confronted each other and Martin tried to get by, while Zimmerman blocked him causing Martin to throw a punch to get the stranger who had been following him to get out of the way.

 

[WildCat]

If Martin did actually throw the first punch, I'm more inclined to believe that the two confronted each other and Martin tried to get by, while Zimmerman blocked him causing Martin to throw a punch to get the stranger who had been following him to get out of the way.

How is that consistent with Martin asing "why are you following me"? Wouldn't "get out of my way" or something to that effect be more likely?

 

[TheL8Elvis]

What 7-Eleven, or other convenience store, did Martin actually visit? Has that been reported?

If we question Zimmerman's movements, we should probably question Martin's as well.

Google shows the nearest store to be a Murphy's, but maybe the info is out of date? Or maybe people just say 7-Eleven as a generic term?

http://www.clickorlando.com/news/La...tion/-/1637132/9613958/-/57edqqz/-/index.html

Crump played the audio files of the girl, whose identity won't be released because of her age, where she says Martin was running back from 7-Eleven in the rain and he ran into a nearby apartment awning to get shelter. He then called her back at 6:54 p.m. and said he was walking with his hood up.

there is a 7-eleven:
1125 RINEHART RD
SANFORD,FL 32771