Trayvon Martin, Vigilante Justice

[Ryokan]

Nope. Look at what I said again.

Once jump on top of the guy and keep beating him, you're no longer "fighting back"; you're the aggressor. And yes, at that point the guy can shoot you to defend himself.

All that means is that you just have to push someone far enough, let them get the upper hand, and you can shoot them. That you don't see this baffles me.

What if the victim of a rapist turns the tables and starts winning, can the rapist legally shoot her?

 

[RandFan]

The facts are the facts...

The fact is clear, "if you lift up your shirt" it is brandishing a weapon.

 

[Roadtoad]

I thought this was a discussion, not a game of "gotcha."

 

[leftysergeant]

If, as someone has suggested, there was a fired cartridge still in the weapon, it would strongly suggest that Martin may have tried to take it away from Z.

When you are whomping on someone you think is trying to waylay you, and find out that he is armed, you do NOT let him go or stop trying to hurt him enough to render him harmless to you.

Martin would have been within the law to have killed Z.

 

[Checkmite]

Oh, in that case (hypothetical follows):

IF Zimmerman accosted Martin, grabbed him, waved a gun in his face, etc. THEN Martin would have been justifiably in fear of his life and could try to neutralize the threat (using whatever level of force was necessary).

(/end hypothetical)

At the moment I don't see that either can be proved or disproved. This may mean, under presumption of innocence, that Zimmerman walks. Whether that is just or not... maybe only Zimmerman knows. (It does seem - though maybe this is due to media hype - that the local police force screwed up the investigation. Actually, scratch that... they would've had to have bothered having an investigation in order to be able to screw it up).

I can't find any fault with this reasoning. It is acutely possible that there isn't enough evidence to convict. But I think it's not impossible that there is, and I favor a trial.

If any good can come of this, it's that it is highly unlikely Zimmerman will be welcome to help "protect" any of his future neighbors and neighborhoods. While this does mean that open garage doors and 9-year-old black boys walking by themselves will go tragically unreported, I believe it is ultimately for the best.

 

[RandFan]

IThe facts are the facts, and you are misstating the facts, then using specious logic and clear cut fallacies like the above deliberate removal of the important words "in a threatening manner", to promote a false claim.

Pleas see my original post.

I think it depends on the demeanor of Zimmerman and whether or not Zimmerman took care to keep the gun hidden. Just seeing the gun could make Martin reasonably in fear of his life. In California Zimmerman would be guilty of brandishing a weapon if he just lifted his jacket to expose the gun.

The reason I used the word "demeanor" was to encompass "threatening manner".

 

[lionking]

I thought this was a discussion, not a game of "gotcha."

I thought it was an Internet Tough Guy contest (where's dtugg when you need him?).

 

[sgtbaker]

Zimmerman never said Martin was "standing there," he repeatedly said he was "staring (around), but that says more about what was going on in Zimmerman's head, given that it's clear that he was parked up along Martin's natural route back to where he was staying. Martin walked towards Zimmerman because he would have to go past him to get to his destination. "He's coming to check me out," was just Zimmerman's paranoid misinterpretation.

You're right, he said, "Now, he's just staring at me." Just staring gave me the visual of someone standing still and staring.

 

[RandFan]

I thought this was a discussion, not a game of "gotcha."

Fair enough. Thank you. I apologize for having personalized the discussion and have edited out offending statements from previous posts.

 

[leftysergeant]

You're right, he said, "Now, he's just staring at me." Just staring gave me the visual of someone standing still and staring.

This means that by Z's own words, he had the opportunity to retreat. He was not taken unawares from behind.

He had no legitimate reason to be acting in a threatening manner, so SYG does not apply at that point.

 

[crimresearch]

Your emotion has gotten the best of you again crim.

What in the sam hell do you think "demeanor" means?

Jesus, chill out. If you would take a deep breath and not simply make assumptions then you would get along better.

In other words, you can't argue the facts, so you again have to drag in personal comments to create a smoke screen for your flat out denial of facts.

There is no law in California that matches your claim about *just* lifting a jacket. If it isn't done in a threatening manner, or if it's done to stop an attack, the attorney in your own link makes it clear that it wouldn't be the crime of brandishing.

Now go ahead, and show us how apologizing for being wrong is done.

 

[Checkmite]

No, the "staring" part was before Z even got out of his vehicle.

 

[Beerina]

So if you want to kill someone legally, all you have to do is start a fight with them, and if they fight back, you can just shoot them.

I don't want to live where you live..

Is this a statistical problem that needs addressing via legislation?

 

[leftysergeant]

No, the "staring" part was before Z even got out of his vehicle.

If Z considered "staring" at him threatening, he knew that getting out of his vehicle would have to look like a challenge. Since he had no right to challenge Martin, he may have already been in violation of the law. He was clearly harrassing Martin.

 

[RandFan]

In other words, you can't argue the facts, so you again have to drag in personal comments to create a smoke screen for your flat out denial of facts.

There is no law in California that matches your claim about *just* lifting a jacket. If it isn't done in a threatening manner, or if it's done to stop an attack, the attorney in your own link makes it clear that it wouldn't be the crime of brandishing.

Now go ahead, and show us how apologizing for being wrong is done.

I edited out the offending comments.

I stand by comment. You are simply cherry picking and taking my words out of context. I specifically included "demeanor". It wasn't in the statement with the link but I meant for demeanor to be part of that which is why I stated so. You are playing gotcha. I'm sorry you feel the need to personalize the argument. I've edited my posts because they violated forum rules.

 

[leftysergeant]

Is this a statistical problem that needs addressing via legislation?

It does need to be addressed.

I would favor making it a murder charge if you kill someone in an encounter that you intiate for no good reason.

 

[RandFan]

I think it depends on the demeanor of Zimmerman and whether or not Zimmerman took care to keep the gun hidden. Just seeing the gun could make Martin reasonably in fear of his life. In California Zimmerman would be guilty of brandishing a weapon if he just lifted his jacket to expose the gun.

It depends on the demeanor of Zimmerman.

 

[sgtbaker]

All that means is that you just have to push someone far enough, let them get the upper hand, and you can shoot them. That you don't see this baffles me.

What if the victim of a rapist turns the tables and starts winning, can the rapist legally shoot her?

To your first question, I don't know. I suppose it's possible but I don't think that was Zimmerman's intent.

To your second question, no, not if they are committing a felony. As far as I know, the person committing a felony is not protected by SYG.

 

[Roadtoad]

I thought it was an Internet Tough Guy contest (where's dtugg when you need him?).

Fair enough. Thank you. I apologize for having personalized the discussion and have edited out offending statements from previous posts.

Thank you.

 

[sgtbaker]

This means that by Z's own words, he had the opportunity to retreat. He was not taken unawares from behind.

He had no legitimate reason to be acting in a threatening manner, so SYG does not apply at that point.

This was in the beginning of the call, before Martin ran and Zimmerman got out of the car. This part has nothing to do with SYG.