Trayvon Martin, Vigilante Justice

[Giz]

I'm asking you a hypothetical. Just as you provided a hypothetical with the "bashing head in" comment.

Zimmerman had a gun, right? It is beyond the realm of possibility that Martin saw the gun?

Oh, in that case (hypothetical follows):

IF Zimmerman accosted Martin, grabbed him, waved a gun in his face, etc. THEN Martin would have been justifiably in fear of his life and could try to neutralize the threat (using whatever level of force was necessary).

(/end hypothetical)

At the moment I don't see that either can be proved or disproved. This may mean, under presumption of innocence, that Zimmerman walks. Whether that is just or not... maybe only Zimmerman knows. (It does seem - though maybe this is due to media hype - that the local police force screwed up the investigation. Actually, scratch that... they would've had to have bothered having an investigation in order to be able to screw it up).

 

[AvalonXQ]

Are you stating facts or speculating?

Speculating.

That's really all we can do, based on the testimony that has come to light in this case.

 

[Checkmite]

Florida law:

(5) POSSESSION IN PRIVATE CONVEYANCE.—Notwithstanding subsection (2), it is lawful and is not a violation of s. 790.01 for a person 18 years of age or older to possess a concealed firearm or other weapon for self-defense or other lawful purpose within the interior of a private conveyance, without a license, if the firearm or other weapon is securely encased or is otherwise not readily accessible for immediate use. Nothing herein contained prohibits the carrying of a legal firearm other than a handgun anywhere in a private conveyance when such firearm is being carried for a lawful use. Nothing herein contained shall be construed to authorize the carrying of a concealed firearm or other weapon on the person.

The CCL statutes do not grant an exception to this. If you're in a vehicle, your gun has to be somewhere not readily accessible for immediate use.

If Z was obeying the law, his gun could not have been in his waistband or anywhere else at hand while he was in the vehicle. Meaning he didn't just get out to chase Martin and his gun happened to be in his waistband because it was always there. Z had to get out and consciously retrieve his gun to arm himself before running after Trayvon.

...otherwise he had to have been carrying his gun in the vehicle in a readily accessible manner which is illegal.

 

[WildCat]

Maybe you can straighten Wildcat out on what the shooting he uses as an example shows. There is a hell of a big difference between being shot with a rubber bullet and a 9mm.

Why would that make a difference? There's not going to be a big splatter through the clothing. Real life isn't a Hollywood movie.

 

[AvalonXQ]

Florida law:

(5) POSSESSION IN PRIVATE CONVEYANCE.—Notwithstanding subsection (2), it is lawful and is not a violation of s. 790.01 for a person 18 years of age or older to possess a concealed firearm or other weapon for self-defense or other lawful purpose within the interior of a private conveyance, without a license, if the firearm or other weapon is securely encased or is otherwise not readily accessible for immediate use. Nothing herein contained prohibits the carrying of a legal firearm other than a handgun anywhere in a private conveyance when such firearm is being carried for a lawful use. Nothing herein contained shall be construed to authorize the carrying of a concealed firearm or other weapon on the person.

The CCL statutes do not grant an exception to this. If you're in a vehicle, your gun has to be somewhere not readily accessible for immediate use.

I disagree with your reading; look again. The section you quoted is only about having a concealed handgun in your vehicle without a license (I underlined the relevant clause).
The section you quoted doesn't have anything to do with a non-concealed handgun or a handgun that you have a CCL for.

 

[WildCat]

And yet you still haven't produced the law that says you can use deadly force in response to a mere fistfight.

According to lefty Martin was gong to "bash his brains out", which is obviously fatal.

 

[RandFan]

Oh, in that case (hypothetical follows):

IF Zimmerman accosted Martin, grabbed him, waved a gun in his face, etc. THEN Martin would have been justifiably in fear of his life and could try to neutralize the threat (using whatever level of force was necessary).

(/end hypothetical)

At the moment I don't see that either can be proved or disproved. This may mean, under presumption of innocence, that Zimmerman walks. Whether that is just or not... maybe only Zimmerman knows. (It does seem - though maybe this is due to media hype - that the local police force screwed up the investigation. Actually, scratch that... they would've had to have bothered having an investigation in order to be able to screw it up).

I think it depends on the demeanor of Zimmerman and whether or not Zimmerman took care to keep the gun hidden. Just seeing the gun could make Martin reasonably in fear of his life. In California Zimmerman would be guilty of brandishing a weapon if he just lifted his jacket to expose the gun.

 

[crimresearch]

Um, not for the people I knows what packs a pistol. They either use a fanny pack or an actual holster

It is an actual holster, and I don't see the shock value that someone would choose one, they are pretty popular.

 

[WildCat]

The fact that Zimmerman shot Martin and admits to it is pretty sound evidence he was holding a gun.

And this "holding a gun" preceded Martin punching him in the face?

Evidence?

 

[Information Analyst]

The only speculations I can come up with would involve presuming to know what was going on in Trayvon's head. In the phone call, Zimmerman says that Trayvon was just standing there, checking him out.

Zimmerman never said Martin was "standing there," he repeatedly said he was "staring (around), but that says more about what was going on in Zimmerman's head, given that it's clear that he was parked up along Martin's natural route back to where he was staying. Martin walked towards Zimmerman because he would have to go past him to get to his destination. "He's coming to check me out," was just Zimmerman's paranoid misinterpretation.

 

[AvalonXQ]

I think it depends on the demeanor of Zimmerman and whether or not Zimmerman took care to keep the gun hidden. Just seeing the gun could make Martin reasonably in fear of his life. In California Zimmerman would be guilty of assault.

If Zimmerman's description of the situation is correct (he had got out of his vehicle to check the street sign and was accosted by Martin on his way back to the vehicle), it is unlikely that his wearing of his firearm constitutes "brandishing a weapon" even under California law.

 

[crimresearch]

Florida law:

(5) POSSESSION IN PRIVATE CONVEYANCE.—Notwithstanding subsection (2), it is lawful and is not a violation of s. 790.01 for a person 18 years of age or older to possess a concealed firearm or other weapon for self-defense or other lawful purpose within the interior of a private conveyance, without a license, if the firearm or other weapon is securely encased or is otherwise not readily accessible for immediate use. Nothing herein contained prohibits the carrying of a legal firearm other than a handgun anywhere in a private conveyance when such firearm is being carried for a lawful use. Nothing herein contained shall be construed to authorize the carrying of a concealed firearm or other weapon on the person.

The CCL statutes do not grant an exception to this. If you're in a vehicle, your gun has to be somewhere not readily accessible for immediate use.

If Z was obeying the law, his gun could not have been in his waistband or anywhere else at hand while he was in the vehicle. Meaning he didn't just get out to chase Martin and his gun happened to be in his waistband because it was always there. Z had to get out and consciously retrieve his gun to arm himself before running after Trayvon.

...otherwise he had to have been carrying his gun in the vehicle in a readily accessible manner which is illegal.

**WITHOUT A LICENSE** **FOR A LAWFUL PURPOSE**

That is simply wishful thinking that the CCW statutes do not exempt anyone from this.

 

[leftysergeant]

Zimmerman was a paranoid bravo who had no business pursuing a teenager buying Skittles.

And if the teenager had just kept walking instead of accosting the bravo and getting violent with him, he'd still be alive today.

Z didn't give him that choice. He interdicted Martin. It was clear to Martin that the idiot had no business getting in his way and could very well have meant to do him harm. There is even the possibility that Z was reaching for the gun.

I don't care whether you think that having the fat slob on the ground should have ended the fight. There is the chance that Martin saw the gun.

Anybody with an IQ over 70 should know that if you notice that the person you are pounding on has a gun and you stop, you could very well get shot.

Martin had no reason to believe that the fat whackjob was not a threat to him.

 

[AvalonXQ]

Z didn't give him that choice. He interdicted Martin.

No; Martin interdicted him.

 

[WildCat]

Not if Z initiated the confrontation. I can't stalk you, physically confront you, then have a legitimate claim of self defense when I kill you for reacting to my threatening behavior.

This is true, however we have no evidence at all that that is what happened.

This is compounded by the fact that Z never identified who he was or that he was part of the neighborhood watch.

Uh, what?

 

[RandFan]

If Zimmerman's description of the situation is correct (he had got out of his vehicle to check the street sign and was accosted by Martin on his way back to the vehicle), it is unlikely that his wearing of his firearm constitutes "brandishing a weapon" even under California law.

A.) If he were in California he would be charged with an illegal weapons violation. B.) We are talking about hypotheticals. People keep presenting hypotheticals as if no other options are possible. I'm showing that it would easily be possible for Zimmerman to cause Martin to fear for his life. If someone approached me in a threatening manner and I saw a gun in their waste band and I thought I was about to die I might strike out to beat the guy senseless and I would be within my right to do so.

"If Zimmerman's description is correct". My hypothetical doesn't assume that.

 

[WildCat]

I'm asking you a hypothetical. Just as you provided a hypothetical with the "bashing head in" comment.

Zimmerman had a gun, right? It is beyond the realm of possibility that Martin saw the gun?

Would you attack a guy you knew had a gun? Who are you, Claus Larsen?

 

[leftysergeant]

According to lefty Martin was gong to "bash his brains out", which is obviously fatal.

No. I was saying that he had the right to do so, if that was what it took to subdue the dirtbag. If Martin did see the gun, then he would obviously have been an idiot to stop until he was able to disarm the stalker.

Z always had the option to lie still and be disarmed. He was not engaged in a lawful activity when he scared the kid into attacking him.

 

[Information Analyst]

Zimmerman's story is that he was walking back to his truck and Martin accosted him. Do you have evidence to contradict this?

The location of the shooting in relation to where Zimmerman's vehicle was parked.

 

[WildCat]

The punk had no right to confront Martin or interfere with him in any way.

And you have no evidence at all that that's what happened.