Trayvon Martin, Vigilante Justice

[WildCat]

Again, the reason the police chief stepped down is that he made a comment that showed a terrible bias given that we the public know for a fact that there is indeed evidence that casts doubt on Zimmerman's account of the incident.

Odd that no one has bothered posting that here, unless speculation is now defined as fact now?

 

[JoeTheJuggler]

Reasonable (the legal definition, not the internet one) belief.

Fear for one's life or great bodily harm.

Use of proportionate force.

Stopping when the threat is over.

Yep. Normally the defendant would have to prove that he actually had this belief and that this belief was reasonable.

But apparently the SYG law changes this standard. Just as a guess, I think it affects the "Stopping when the threat is over" part, but I don't know.

Here's the actual statute, which I haven't read at all yet. Probably a good place to start:

http://www.leg.state.fl.us/statutes...ng=&URL=0700-0799/0776/Sections/0776.013.html

ETA: Sorry--that isn't the correct statute (or not all of it) since it only involves home invasions. I'll quote the entire text of the appropriate statute (it's that short):

776.012 Use of force in defense of person.—A person is justified in using force, except deadly force, against another when and to the extent that the person reasonably believes that such conduct is necessary to defend himself or herself or another against the other's imminent use of unlawful force. However, a person is justified in the use of deadly force and does not have a duty to retreat if:

(1) He or she reasonably believes that such force is necessary to prevent imminent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another or to prevent the imminent commission of a forcible felony; or

(2) Under those circumstances permitted pursuant to s. 776.013.

776-013 is the home-invasion one I linked to above.

http://www.myfloridahouse.gov/FileStores/Web/Statutes/FS09/CH0776/Section_0776.012.HTM

 

[WildCat]

Punching someone in the nose when they attempt to grab you is a reasonable response.

George left his truck to chase Trayvon down. His 911 call made it clear he didn't wan't to let this one get away.

There's that speculation I was talking about in my last post.

 

[TheL8Elvis]

Linky.
http://abcnews.go.com/US/trayvon-ma...zimmerman-walk/story?id=16000239#.T3CgwByEOIQ

FWIW, the last article I cited also says that Zimmerman's statement admits that it was he (Zimmerman) who confronted Trayvon. (Someone was arguing that it may have been otherwise earlier in the thread.)

Where ? I missed it ?

 

[crimresearch]

I've just cited both Zimmerman's lawyer (Craig Sonner) and Prosecutor Corey saying it is at issue.

Here it is again (from the ABC news article--my bolding):





That's what my first thought was. Earlier in the thread (I think my first response to one of your posts--or to a reply someone else made to your post or some such): that of the 4 elements the defense would have to prove for the self defense assertion, the first 2 didn't seem to have anything to do with SYG. However, if the facts are that they were both involved in a fist fight, then I think we're past that to the second part--whether Zimmerman believed the amount of force he used was necessary and whether that was a reasonable belief.

From what I'm reading, the SYG law changes this requirement. I'm not sure exactly how, but that's pretty much what the prosecutor is saying.

FWIW, the last article I cited also says that Zimmerman's statement admits that it was he (Zimmerman) who confronted Trayvon. (Someone was arguing that it may have been otherwise earlier in the thread.)

The statute was posted long ago, and re-cited many times.

Sonner's exact words were quoted in the articles I linked to, you cited articles that don't directly quote him, and instead insert the reporter's opinions.


Notice that there is no single 'controversial stand your ground law', there is simply the long standing law on self defense, with a section added about special situations... removing the old 'retreat' requirement'.

 

[Noztradamus]

http://articles.orlandosentinel.com...1_arizona-iced-tea-suv-unarmed-black-teenager

Quote:
With a single punch, Trayvon Martin decked the Neighborhood Watch volunteer who eventually shot and killed the unarmed 17-year-old, then Trayvon climbed on top of George Zimmerman and slammed his head into the sidewalk several times, leaving him bloody and battered, authorities have revealed to the Orlando Sentinel.

That is the account Zimmerman gave police, and much of it has been corroborated by witnesses, authorities say.

Zimmerman has not spoken publicly about what happened, but that night, Feb. 26, and in later meetings he described and re-enacted for police what he says happened.

In his version of events, he had turned around and was walking back to his SUV when Trayvon approached him from behind, the two exchanged words then Trayvon punched him in the nose, sending him to the ground, and began beating him.

Zimmerman told police he shot the teenager in self-defense.

Read further down

There is about a one-minute gap during which police say they're not sure what happened.

Zimmerman told them he lost sight of Trayvon and was walking back to his SUV when Trayvon approached him from the left rear, and they exchanged words.

Trayvon asked Zimmerman if he had a problem. Zimmerman said no and reached for his cell phone, he told police.

Reaching for something while having heated words may have lead Martin to believe that Zimmerman was carrying a gun (oh wait...). Then it would seem that Martin had reason to believe his life was in danger.

 

[JoeTheJuggler]

I assume the change involves the part about using deadly force in order "to prevent the imminent commission of a forcible felony". So rather than only being able to use self-defense when you reasonably believe it's necessary to prevent imminent death or great bodily harm to oneself, it says you can use deadly force if you reasonably believe it will prevent a felony.

I can see where that would make the prosecution's job tougher, but in this case it doesn't seem that much more difficult.

 

[LTC8K6]

Read further down



Reaching for something while having heated words may have lead Martin to believe that Zimmerman was carrying a gun (oh wait...). Then it would seem that Martin had reason to believe his life was in danger.

If we are going by that account, that is not when Martin punched Zimmerman.

So both men feared for their lives then?

That's a tie. Light or no jail time for Zimmerman.

 

[LTC8K6]

http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/family-pot-linked-trayvon-martin-suspension-16004126#.T3Cmu9miY08

Confirmation of reason for suspension.

Don't see why we couldn't have known this earlier.

 

[AvalonXQ]

A teenager beat a guy to the ground, and kept beating him until the guy shot him.

Sounds like self-defense to me.

 

[Kestrel]

How do you know a grab attempt was made?

Says nothing about any physical confrontation, could be to make sure he can always see him.

If Trayvon was female and George ran after her, she would be justified in hitting him. He was acting just like a predator stalking an innocent person. But since young black men are typecast as predators, we grasp at any straw to avoid letting them be the victim.

George was playing Batman that night. But unlike Batman, he didn't make sure his target was a criminal first.

 

[LTC8K6]

A teenager beat a guy to the ground, and kept beating him until the guy shot him.

Sounds like self-defense to me.

A little too simple, I think.

But it will be very hard to convict Zimmerman of the higher charges, I think.

Unless there's more evidence out there.

 

[crimresearch]

I assume the change involves the part about using deadly force in order "to prevent the imminent commission of a forcible felony". So rather than only being able to use self-defense when you reasonably believe it's necessary to prevent imminent death or great bodily harm to oneself, it says you can use deadly force if you reasonably believe it will prevent a felony.

I can see where that would make the prosecution's job tougher, but in this case it doesn't seem that much more difficult.

Forcible felony is rape. Forcible felony is ADW. Forcible felony is armed robbery. Are you seriously trying to drag that into this discussion?


No. Just no. Read his lawyer's exact words. It is simply a self defense claim.

 

[AvalonXQ]

If Trayvon was female and George ran after her, she would be justified in hitting him.

She wouldn't be justified in beating him to the ground, and then continuing to beat him.

If she did that, he would be justified in shooting her.

 

[JoeTheJuggler]

Where ? I missed it ?

Zimmerman shot Martin dead the night of Feb. 26 after following him for several minutes. Zimmerman told police Martin looked suspicious because he was wearing a hoodie, and when he confronted him the two fought -- ultimately resulting in a single bullet in Martin's chest.

Granted the pronouns here are a little bit ambiguous, but I'd think if it meant that Martin confronted Zimmerman, the reporter would have reworded the sentence (since that runs contrary to what we'd expect from the story as given).

I think the article has just been updated. There seems to be a lot more complete information now.

Another tidbit that was added, when Zimmerman told the 911 dispatcher that he was following Martin, he was told, "We don't need you to do that."

 

[crimresearch]

She wouldn't be justified in beating him to the ground, and then continuing to beat him.

If she did that, he would be justified in shooting her.

Says who? (besides yourself) I asked for the legal cite saying guns vs. fists is the law, no one seems to have produced it... will you?

 

[TheL8Elvis]

http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/family-pot-linked-trayvon-martin-suspension-16004126#.T3Cmu9miY08

Confirmation of reason for suspension.

Don't see why we couldn't have known this earlier.

Damn. There goes my thoughts on the parents and being careful about what they say.

That was , in my opinion, a stupid thing for them to mislead people on. It just raises the question of what else are they misleading people about.

(did that affect the nights events - no ... will it make the blogosphere explode with his twitter name, gang banger and drug dealer references ... yes.)

 

[Disbelief]

If Trayvon was female and George ran after her, she would be justified in hitting him. He was acting just like a predator stalking an innocent person. But since young black men are typecast as predators, we grasp at any straw to avoid letting them be the victim.

George was playing Batman that night. But unlike Batman, he didn't make sure his target was a criminal first.

Still all speculation, no matter your attempted appeal to emotion.

 

[JoeTheJuggler]

No. Just no. Read his lawyer's exact words. It is simply a self defense claim.

I've twice cited that his lawyer would likely invoke the SYG law, and that the prosecutor says the SYG law will make the case against Zimmerman more difficult to make.

Zimmerman claimed self defense and this weekend the lawyer counseling him, Craig Sonner, told ABC News that he was likely to invoke Florida's controversial stand-your-ground law in his defense.

Is ABC news lying?

 

[LTC8K6]

In the phone call with the girlfriend, Martin doesn't initially have the hoodie up. He puts it up sometime during the incident.