Trayvon Martin, Vigilante Justice

[TheL8Elvis]

The 911 calls released to the press only have one male witness. He indicates that the shooting happened in his back yard. Do you believe this caller is John?

? 2 calls are male , at least ?

I believe 'john' is call 1 - 'two guys are wrestling in my back yard'

 

[RobRoy]

Which still would not justify the use of deadly force in response to merely getting punched in the nose.

Did I say it did?

 

[varwoche]

<snip weird diatribe>

WTF? Could it be that a bug in the forum software is causing posts to bleed over from unrelated threads.

 

[332nd]

Zimmerman's medical records are protected.

However, I agree with the gist of your post.

Fair enough.

 

[JoeTheJuggler]

Which still would not justify the use of deadly force in response to merely getting punched in the nose.

And here's where the Florida "stand your ground" law might enter in. If we accept that Zimmerman had an actual belief he was going to be attacked and that that belief was reasonable, the new law seems to go against the requirement that Zimmerman prove that he only used what force was reasonably necessary in response. (Without such a law, he could answer an attack with fists either in like manner or by walking away. He might argue that the law says he doesn't have to walk away, and he might argue that he would have still had a reasonable fear of being beaten up doing anything else but shooting him. . . .)

I think the delay now is in the prosecutor's trying to decide whether she can make a criminal case against Zimmerman given this new law.

 

[Puppycow]

CNN poll: Majority call for arrest in Trayvon Martin shooting

(CNN) -- One month after the shooting death of Trayvon Martin, nearly three out of four Americans say the police should arrest the neighborhood watch volunteer who pulled the trigger, according to a new national survey.

And the CNN/ORC International poll released Monday also indicates that three-quarters of the public says that neighborhood watch members should not be allowed to carry weapons.

Seventy-three percent of people questioned in the survey say that George Zimmerman should be arrested, with 11% disagreeing and 16% unsure. Zimmerman admits to shooting and killing Martin, an unarmed African-American teenager, in Sanford, Florida, on February 26.

I'm not saying he should be arrested based on public opinion, just noting what the national view of the situation is.

 

[RobRoy]

WTF? Could it be that a bug in the forum software is causing posts to bleed over from unrelated threads.

I believe Brattus was commenting, sarcastically, on some of the emotional slant various media stories have taken.

ETA: This post above sums it up.

 

[crimresearch]

Did I say it did?

You failed to say it didn't. FTFY.

 

[JoeTheJuggler]

When do they ever release all the details of an ongoing investigation?

I never claimed they did. (In fact, I prefaced several of my posts with an acknowledgement that we don't have all the evidence.)

I was replying to the suggestion that police never discuss ongoing cases.

They do.

And in this one, they definitely have done so.

Again, the reason the police chief stepped down is that he made a comment that showed a terrible bias given that we the public know for a fact that there is indeed evidence that casts doubt on Zimmerman's account of the incident.

 

[Moss]

WTF? Could it be that a bug in the forum software is causing posts to bleed over from unrelated threads.

I'm not sure we have a "Examples of appeal to ridicule" thread.

 

[sgtbaker]

As for John, why did he wait this long to come out with his story? Is there any evidence that he saw what happened that night?

He actually didn't wait. He was interviewed the very next morning and told the events he saw.

 

[JoeTheJuggler]

You failed to say it didn't. FTFY.

And sadly, it might (under the new law):

Even if George Zimmerman is charged in the death of Trayvon Martin, getting a conviction would be "more difficult than a normal criminal case," the prosecutor reviewing the evidence said Monday.

Zimmerman's attorney, Craig Sonner, has indicated they will invoke Florida's "stand-your-ground" law, which provides significant leeway for someone to use deadly force if they feel their life is in danger. He says Zimmerman suffered a broken nose and a gash to the back of his head as a result of his encounter with Martin.

Linky.

I hope this is occasion for saner heads to prevail and repeal this law. If the result of the law is to encourage fist fights to turn into homicides, it's a really bad idea.

ETA: The prosecutor is described as an ardent victims' rights advocate, but she is the one saying the case against Zimmerman will be very difficult to make. (Here's a better source for the comments she made to the press: http://abcnews.go.com/US/trayvon-ma...zimmerman-walk/story?id=16000239#.T3CgwByEOIQ

FWIW, While Trayvon was quite a bit taller than Zimmerman (6'3" vs. 5'9"), he gave away at least 50 pounds (150 vs. "well over 200 pounds" respectively).

 

[RobRoy]

You failed to say it didn't.

I didn't comment on a great many things.

I'm not certain why you inferred defense of the shooting at all, as I was only speaking on character evidence. My position on the shooting is almost completely unrelated in this instance, as I was merely explaining why Martin's suspension might be relevant.

FTFY.

What did you fix? I see no change between my original post and the one you quoted.

 

[Kestrel]

Which still would not justify the use of deadly force in response to merely getting punched in the nose.

Punching someone in the nose when they attempt to grab you is a reasonable response.

George left his truck to chase Trayvon down. His 911 call made it clear he didn't wan't to let this one get away.

 

[crimresearch]

And here's where the Florida "stand your ground" law might enter in. If we accept that Zimmerman had an actual belief he was going to be attacked and that that belief was reasonable, the new law seems to go against the requirement that Zimmerman prove that he only used what force was reasonably necessary in response. (Without such a law, he could answer an attack with fists either in like manner or by walking away. He might argue that the law says he doesn't have to walk away, and he might argue that he would have still had a reasonable fear of being beaten up doing anything else but shooting him. . . .)

I think the delay now is in the prosecutor's trying to decide whether she can make a criminal case against Zimmerman given this new law.

SYG is the media's meme, note the quotes from Zimmerman's own lawyer saying it isn't the issue here.

The core question is still going to be what reasonable belief did the shooter have that his life was in danger at that moment. Being attacked alone isn't enough, being punched in the nose alone isn't enough, to justify deadly force.

 

[Moss]

SYG is the media's meme, note the quotes from Zimmerman's own lawyer saying it isn't the issue here.

The core question is still going to be what reasonable belief did the shooter have that his life was in danger at that moment. Being attacked alone isn't enough, being punched in the nose alone isn't enough, to justify deadly force.

What exactly does justify deadly force?

 

[crimresearch]

And sadly, it might (under the new law):


Linky.

I hope this is occasion for saner heads to prevail and repeal this law. If the result of the law is to encourage fist fights to turn into homicides, it's a really bad idea.

ETA: The prosecutor is described as an ardent victims' rights advocate, but she is the one saying the case against Zimmerman will be very difficult to make. (Here's a better source for the comments she made to the press: http://abcnews.go.com/US/trayvon-ma...zimmerman-walk/story?id=16000239#.T3CgwByEOIQ

FWIW, While Trayvon was quite a bit taller than Zimmerman (6'3" vs. 5'9"), he gave away at least 50 pounds (150 vs. "well over 200 pounds" respectively).

Siiiigh. How many times do the links to Sonner's actual words have to be posted, before people quit falling for media crap like 'indicated' and 'might'?

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4684508...your-ground-doesnt-apply-trayvon-martin-case/

The SYG myth is neither correct, nor useful (except to the media's need for manufactured controversy).

 

[Disbelief]

Punching someone in the nose when they attempt to grab you is a reasonable response.

How do you know a grab attempt was made?

George left his truck to chase Trayvon down. His 911 call made it clear he didn't wan't to let this one get away.

Says nothing about any physical confrontation, could be to make sure he can always see him.

 

[crimresearch]

What exactly does justify deadly force?

Reasonable (the legal definition, not the internet one) belief.

Fear for one's life or great bodily harm.

Use of proportionate force.

Stopping when the threat is over.

 

[JoeTheJuggler]

SYG is the media's meme, note the quotes from Zimmerman's own lawyer saying it isn't the issue here.

I've just cited both Zimmerman's lawyer (Craig Sonner) and Prosecutor Corey saying it is at issue.

Here it is again (from the ABC news article--my bolding):

"The stand-your-ground law is one portion of justifiable use of deadly force," veteran State Attorney Angela Corey said. "And what that means is that the state must go forward and be able to prove it's [sic] case beyond a reasonable doubt… So it makes the case in general more difficult than a normal criminal case."

<snip>
Zimmerman claimed self defense all along, and this weekend the lawyer counseling him, Craig Sonner, told ABC News that he was likely to invoke Florida's controversial stand-your-ground law in his defense.

The core question is still going to be what reasonable belief did the shooter have that his life was in danger at that moment. Being attacked alone isn't enough, being punched in the nose alone isn't enough, to justify deadly force.

That's what my first thought was. Earlier in the thread (I think my first response to one of your posts--or to a reply someone else made to your post or some such): that of the 4 elements the defense would have to prove for the self defense assertion, the first 2 didn't seem to have anything to do with SYG. However, if the facts are that they were both involved in a fist fight, then I think we're past that to the second part--whether Zimmerman believed the amount of force he used was necessary and whether that was a reasonable belief.

From what I'm reading, the SYG law changes this requirement. I'm not sure exactly how, but that's pretty much what the prosecutor is saying.

FWIW, the last article I cited also says that Zimmerman's statement admits that it was he (Zimmerman) who confronted Trayvon. (Someone was arguing that it may have been otherwise earlier in the thread.)