Trayvon Martin, Vigilante Justice

[WildCat]

Which may be true. Zimmerman may have been losing a fight with Martin at some point. But this witness went into his home and didn't see the shooting. Cutcher seems to have seen them after this person, and she says they stopped fighting.

Cutcher didn't see anything until after the fatal shot had been fired, so of course the fighting had stopped.

So, can't they both be correct? Or, isn't it possible that two people can see the same event and come away with a different perception? The black woman sees the black teen as the victim, while a white male sees the white male this way? Neither can process the alternate scenario?

Again, by the time Cutcher saw the two (as opposed to hearing them) Martin was already dead. She's in no position to know who was screaming.

Or they can be two different events. One tussle in back of John's house, another in back of Cutcher's which is where Zimmerman shoots the teen.

I doubt that very much.

 

[johnny karate]

What if he was looking for suspicious people to report to police?

Then the claim about running errands becomes a fabrication and Zimmerman's credibility is called into question.

No, he was trying to keep a suspicious person in sight so the police could stop him.

Did the gun he brought with him help him to see better?

Why yes, did you see the word "justice" there? That goes way beyond just reporting a person to police.

So did Zimmerman's behavior.

It even goes beyond detaining a person for police (of which there is no evidence that was his intent).

He had a gun. That at the very least indicates he was preparing for some kind of altercation.

A vigilante also metes out punishment.

You mean like shooting someone to death?

Unless in your world "doing justice" means reporting suspicious persons to police? In which case anyone who calls the police to report a crime or a suspicious person is a vigilante.

But Zimmerman didn't stop at reporting Martin to the police, did he? He armed himself and pursued him - again, against the policy of his neighborhood watch and the advice of the police dispatcher. Smacks of vigilantism to me.

 

[johnny karate]

If the attorney goes on national tv and claims a broken nose for his client in this case, I assume he'll have evidence to back it up. It seems like a reasonable assumption to me.

Good for you. Personally, I prefer evidence.

I don't know if we are ever going to know that. I guess we'll have to wait and see what information comes to light.

Now that a proper investigation is being done, hopefully we will.

 

[WildCat]

Then the claim about running errands becomes a fabrication and Zimmerman's credibility is called into question.

You misunderdstand, what if he said he was patrolling the neighborhood for suspicious persons? How would that change anything?

Did the gun he brought with him help him to see better?

No, but neither did the shirt he was wearing or the shoes on his feet. Did someone claim it did?

So did Zimmerman's behavior.

You cannot possibly know that with the information we have.

He had a gun. That at the very least indicates he was preparing for some kind of altercation.

Being prepared doesn't mean you're looking for one. Does buying health insurance mean you intend on getting cancer? Did Larry Silverstein's insurance policies mean he blew up the World Trade Center?

You mean like shooting someone to death?

You have evidence that was his intent? What was he looking to punish Martin for again?

But Zimmerman didn't stop at reporting Martin to the police, did he? He armed himself and pursued him - again, against the policy of his neighborhood watch and the advice of the police dispatcher. Smacks of vigilantism to me.

Again, you have evidence he intended to do anything more than report Martin's location to police?

 

[WildCat]

Good for you. Personally, I prefer evidence.

Do you think all evidence in a criminal investigation is typically released prior to trial? Why do you think that is, and why should this case be different?

 

[A'isha]

Again, you have evidence he intended to do anything more than report Martin's location to police?

Uh, yes. As johnny karate just told you.

Unless you think that when he got out of his car with his gun to go confront Martin (against the explicit advice of the police dispatcher), that Zimmerman didn't actually mean to do any of those things.

 

[JoeTheJuggler]

Just curious - how exactly are you prohibited from carrying a weapon while on neighborhood watch? Assuming you are otherwise legally permitted to carry a weapon, would you be charged with a crime or just kicked out of the program?

You would be kicked out of the program.

In basketball, there's a rule against traveling without dribbling the ball. It doesn't mean it's a crime.

ETA: I think I made clear that my comments were made out of concern for a possible public misperception of neighborhood watch (and similar) programs based on this story. I certainly wouldn't want people to think that neighborhood watch programs (or even patrol programs like the one I'm in) in any way condone or promote vigilante justice.

 

[JoeTheJuggler]

OK, so it looks like self defense. Is it actually self defense?

Obviously I don't have all the evidence about exactly what happened, but if the incident is as the girlfriend described it (from what she heard on the phone), I would say it was not reasonable for Zimmerman to believe he was being threatened with physical force.

I would hate to think that any place in the U.S. could decide that just being black, wearing a hoodie and carrying something is enough for a reasonable belief that you are about to attack someone justifying someone's use of force in self defense.

 

[Noztradamus]

Is it known for certain that's where Zimmerman's truck was? If it was there it would give him a nice long view of Martin walking along the "horizontal" part of Twin Trees Lane, and fit his claims of him "coming towards" him, although how that led to his interpretation of, "he's coming to check me out," is anybody's guess. If Zimmerman did indeed head Martin off in this way, that would naturally add to Martin's concern/fear, because it would block him off from his destination.

I'm going by Zimmerman's 17:14:12 "and uh, straight past the club house and make a left, and then they go past the mailboxes, they’ll see my truck"

If he was right on the corner they'd see his truck as soon as they turned onto the horizontal, well before they saw the mailboxes. Also he's have a better way to state the position of his truck "It's in the next corner" than telling them to look for mailboxes ergo past the corner, on the vertical.

 

[WildCat]

Uh, yes. As johnny karate just told you.

Unless you think that when he got out of his car with his gun to go confront Martin (against the explicit advice of the police dispatcher), that Zimmerman didn't actually mean to do any of those things.

What evidence do you have that he intended to confront Martin, let alone shoot him?

Lots of people telling[ me that Martin intended to detain Martin, or even shoot him, yet no one has provided evidence of this intent. Did Zimmerman have a history of detaining people? If he intended to use his gun to detain Martin, how is it the fight occurred? Did Martin attack a man who was pointing a gun at him in your scenario?

 

[JoeTheJuggler]

Again, you have evidence he intended to do anything more than report Martin's location to police?

The news media have reported that he followed Martin, then approached him and then challenged him, asking something like "What are you doing?"

The fact that he did something more than simply reporting Martin's location is pretty strong evidence that Zimmerman intended to do something more than reporting Martin's location to police.

 

[JoeTheJuggler]

What evidence do you have that he intended to confront Martin, let alone shoot him?

Answered.

Are you denying that Zimmerman intended to follow him? Are you denying that Zimmerman intended to approach and challenge him?

I find that account of events (that he reported Martin and then just happened to run into him again, and then didn't approach Martin and ask him what he was doing) to be incredible based on the news reports I've read.

 

[JoeTheJuggler]

You misunderdstand, what if he said he was patrolling the neighborhood for suspicious persons? How would that change anything?

It would make Zimmerman a more credible person, for one thing.

 

[WildCat]

The news media have reported that he followed Martin, then approached him and then challenged him, asking something like "What are you doing?"

Actually the report from the girl Martin was on the phone with has Martin confronting Zimmerman first, asking "why are you following me". Only then does Zimmerman say anything to Martin.

The fact that he did something more than simply reporting Martin's location is pretty strong evidence that Zimmerman intended to do something more than reporting Martin's location to police.

Why isn't it evidence that he was following Martin to keep him in sight? Had Zimmerman ever detained, or attempted to detain, a suspicious person before? Was he carrying handcuffs?

How do you know Martin didn't seek out and confront Zimmerman for following him after Zimmerman lost sight of him?

By your reasoning if I go driving somewhere in my car, and get in a traffic accident, that's evidence I intended to get in a traffic accident?

 

[WildCat]

Answered.

Are you denying that Zimmerman intended to follow him? Are you denying that Zimmerman intended to approach and challenge him?

I'm saying there's no evidence whatsoever at this point that Zimmerman intended to "challenge" Martin. In fact, according to the girl who was on the phone with Martin it was he who challenged Zimmerman.

I find that account of events (that he reported Martin and then just happened to run into him again, and then didn't approach Martin and ask him what he was doing) to be incredible based on the news reports I've read.

Can you quote one of these news reports that supports that? I find it astounding that you presume to know Zimmerman's intent, as well as how the confrontation initiated, based on the known facts at this time. Unlike you, I don't claim to know any of these things.

 

[WildCat]

It would make Zimmerman a more credible person, for one thing.

So he lied and said he was on a personal errand when he noticed Martin, in order to sound less credible?

 

[Unabogie]

What evidence do you have that he intended to confront Martin, let alone shoot him?

Lots of people telling[ me that Martin intended to detain Martin, or even shoot him, yet no one has provided evidence of this intent. Did Zimmerman have a history of detaining people? If he intended to use his gun to detain Martin, how is it the fight occurred? Did Martin attack a man who was pointing a gun at him in your scenario?

He said on the tape, "these ******** always get away", then "*********** coons", then went after Martin carrying his gun in his waistband.

Sheesh, if not to prevent another "*******" from getting away, what the hell else was he hoping to accomplish?

 

[crimresearch]

Uh, yes. As johnny karate just told you.

Unless you think that when he got out of his car with his gun to go confront Martin (against the explicit advice of the police dispatcher), that Zimmerman didn't actually mean to do any of those things.

Actually, I could be persuaded that he didn't mean to do the *last* thing when he got out of the vehicle.
There is plenty of evidence that he has a pattern 0f behavior that involves putting his hands on people first and making excuses later, with no evidence of prior use of a gun.

I can imagine a scenario where he armed himself in case he was attacked by several knife wielding evil doers while making his anointed rounds.

The point at which he decided that getting punched in the face was 'reasonable' fear for his life may be a hard sell though.

 

[crimresearch]

He said on the tape, "these ******** always get away", then "*********** coons", then went after Martin carrying his gun in his waistband.

Sheesh, if not to prevent another "*******" from getting away, what the hell else was he hoping to accomplish?

In all seriousness, he probably thought that he was going to be freezing turkeys.

 

[triforcharity]

<SPECULATION> GZ shot him while TM was on top of him, and then pushed TM off him by rolling over, and thats how cutcher saw him 'straddling' TM, if that's indeed what she told the police. Her testimony is shaky, in my opinion.
</SPECULATION>

Problems.

1-Martin was found face down. Not impossible under your scenario, but unlikely.

(And this is unconfirmed, but my speculation)

Zimmerman is not reported to have any blood on his shirt by the officer whom placed him in handcuffs.

Now, this could be in another report, but why would an officer mention grass and water on a person's clothing, but not blood?? Seems weird to me.