Trayvon Martin, Vigilante Justice

[WildCat]

Except that it's reported that Zimmerman was in the neighborhood watch in nearly every news article about the incident. I think it's important to clarify that his behavior was not only not typical of that of NW volunteers but was in contradiction to how they're supposed to behave.

It's still irrelevant. You may as well point out that this is not how former alter boys (and he was one) are supposed to behave.

The legality of his actions has nothing to do with the NW.

 

[JoeTheJuggler]

It's still irrelevant.

Irrelevant to what? See my ETA above. It might also be offered as a mitigating factor.

While I'm not claiming we want to encourage behavior like Zimmerman's, I think we should recognize that his motives were different than, for example, those of an armed robber who ends up killing someone.

ETA:

The legality of his actions has nothing to do with the NW.

Is discussion of this incident limited to the legality of Zimmerman's actions?

I think my concern about the effect of this incident on perceptions of neighborhood watch (or similar) programs is appropriate and on topic for this thread.

 

[Kestrel]

Zimmerman called 911 over 40 times so far this year. Were any of these calls to report an actual crime?

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

I see your problem. Forget the Zimmerman's house and the 7-11, they are red herrings. Zimmerman was nowhere near his house, and there is a generic kwikimart closer.

Do I have a typo in my post? I said Trayvon's condo and nothing about Zimmerman's house. And I certainly never mentioned the 7-11. If Z thought Trayvon was "going out the back entrance" and we know Z parked in that inside curve on Twin Trees, that means he pursued Trayvon from where he parked to where he shot him. I don't see Zimmerman cutting Trayvon off and coming up the back way, losing sight of him and returning to his vehicle only to be attacked in that location. Trayvon would have had to pass his own condo and gone away from where Zimmerman was to fit the scenario I said wasn't logical.

You want the map http://www.mojoimage.com/free-image-hosting-10/7901retreatmap2.jpg which was linked to in post 1480. From Z's converse with the dispatcher he was on Twin Trees lane on the opposite side of the houses to the yellow X. If Martin goes around by the pathway at the top, and Zimmerman by the walkthrough, Z loses sight of Martin, but they meet at the yellow X.

For the record, I was the first to post that Google image, but that's neither here nor there.

Zimmerman loses sight of Trayvon parks his vehicle and goes down the sidewalk on foot from the inside curve of Twin Trees to the turn on to the straight shot where the shot occurred.

Looking at the death scene, how could Zimmerman not see Trayvon, turn around and head back to his vehicle only to be attacked from behind?

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

Zimmerman called 911 over 40 times so far this year. Were any of these calls to report an actual crime?

A couple of them.

 

[crimresearch]

Except that it's reported that Zimmerman was in the neighborhood watch in nearly every news article about the incident. I think it's important to clarify that his behavior was not only not typical of that of NW volunteers but was in contradiction to how they're supposed to behave.

ETA: FWIW, I'd also bet money that if Zimmerman is charged in this incident and it makes it to court, his defense will mention his involvement in neighborhood watch.

Further, if Zimmerman is convicted of a crime, I think his motivation for being on the street looking for suspicious activity might be proffered as a mitigating circumstance in sentencing. There really is a difference between this crime (and I'm assuming it's a crime) and, for example, a pre-meditated murder based on the victim's being black, or even between this and a murder from a drug deal gone bad.

Oh, it will come up in the context of the reasonableness of Zimmerman's claim that he was in fear for his life from a person that was demonstrably doing nothing wrong.

 

[mikedenk]

I'm sure someone has already mentioned this, but Zimmerman's behavior don't at all line up with typical neighborhood watch guidelines. I'm in my neighborhood's Citizens on Patrol (COPs) program. We have to undergo some training, and the fact is emphasized that all we're doing is acting as extra eyes for the police. We are never to engage or interact with anyone in any way suspicious. We call in issues that need the attention of the Citizens Service Bureau, and if anything looks criminally suspicious, we call the police. We are prohibited from carrying weapons with us (even if you have a concealed carry permit--you may not carry while on patrol with the COPs program).

Most neighborhood watch programs are similar except that they don't involve actively patrolling the neighborhood.

Just wanted that out there so that people don't get the wrong idea of neighborhood watch programs based on this incident.

Just curious - how exactly are you prohibited from carrying a weapon while on neighborhood watch? Assuming you are otherwise legally permitted to carry a weapon, would you be charged with a crime or just kicked out of the program? I'm not saying I think it's advisable to carry while on "patrol", but I don't see how the police can prohibit you from carrying a weapon through your neighborhood, provided you would normally be permitted to do so.

 

[WildCat]

Zimmerman's attorney says today that Zimmerman's nose was broken in the altercation with Martin: http://video.msnbc.msn.com/msnbc-tv/46849124/#46849124

 

[bookitty]

Zimmerman called 911 over 40 times so far this year. Were any of these calls to report an actual crime?

A summation of Zimmerman's 911 calls with a link to the 47 page document released by the SAnford PD.
Trayvon Shooter's 911 Calls: Potholes, Piles of Trash—and Black Men

But even more than cars, he was concerned about black men on foot in the neighborhood. In August 2011, he called to report a black male in a tank top and shorts acting suspicious near the development's back entrance. "[Complainant] believes [subject] is involved in recent S-21s"—break-ins—"in the neighborhood," the call log states. The suspect, Zimmerman told the dispatcher, fit a recent description given out by law enforcement officers.

Three days later, he called to report two black teens in the same area, for the same reason. "[Juveniles] are the subjs who have been [burglarizing] in this area," he told the dispatcher.

And last month, on Feb. 2, Zimmerman called to report a suspicious black man in a leather jacket near one of the development's units. The resident of that townhouse, Zimmerman told dispatch, was a white male. Police stopped by to investigate, but no one was there, and the residence was secure.

 

[Roadtoad]

Zimmerman's camp is a little late to the game. But it does seem as though they're trying to spin the hell out of this.

ETA: I have to quit watching this around my wife. She's getting angrier about this with every video link.

 

[crimresearch]

Zimmerman called 911 over 40 times so far this year. Were any of these calls to report an actual crime?

Something else to make one go 'Hmmmm', regarding credibility.

However, in December 2008, he applied for a citizens’ police academy with the Seminole Sheriff’s Office. In his application, Zimmerman stressed his background with the law: He wrote that his father is a retired Virginia Supreme Court magistrate judge and his mother worked as a deputy clerk of courts.

http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/03/23/v-fullstory/2712299/george-zimmerman-self-appointed.html


In Virginia, a magistrate is what many other places call a 'justice of the peace'... as far removed from a Supreme Court 'judge' as one could possibly get.

 

[crimresearch]

Just curious - how exactly are you prohibited from carrying a weapon while on neighborhood watch? Assuming you are otherwise legally permitted to carry a weapon, would you be charged with a crime or just kicked out of the program? I'm not saying I think it's advisable to carry while on "patrol", but I don't see how the police can prohibit you from carrying a weapon through your neighborhood, provided you would normally be permitted to do so.

The police don't prohibit anyone from carrying while patrolling as a member of NW, if they can legally carry.
The official Neighborhood Watch rules state specifically that members will not carry etc. and the police liason explains that at the meetings.

Choosing to do so insulates NW from any liability.

 

[Information Analyst]

Yes, but not in the context of "and I was returning to my vehicle".

I wasn't talking about losing sight of Trayvon at some point prior to being on the sidewalk where the killing occurred. I was talking about losing sight of Trayvon in the context of then being in the act of returning to his vehicle when attacked from behind.

Sure. The whole "returning to vehicle" thing doesn't make sense in the context of the killing taking place where it did. Martin was a hair's bredth from "home," and so hiding/hanging around to pounce on Zimmerman makes no sense. Zimmerman, of course, did not know that, so saying he was attacked when heading back to his vehicle must have seemed a good excuse.

 

[Information Analyst]

I see your problem. Forget the Zimmerman's house and the 7-11, they are red herrings. Zimmerman was nowhere near his house, and there is a generic kwikimart closer.
You want the map http://www.mojoimage.com/free-image-hosting-10/7901retreatmap2.jpg which was linked to in post 1480. From Z's converse with the dispatcher he was on Twin Trees lane on the opposite side of the houses to the yellow X. If Martin goes around by the pathway at the top, and Zimmerman by the walkthrough, Z loses sight of Martin, but they meet at the yellow X.

Is it known for certain that's where Zimmerman's truck was? If it was there it would give him a nice long view of Martin walking along the "horizontal" part of Twin Trees Lane, and fit his claims of him "coming towards" him, although how that led to his interpretation of, "he's coming to check me out," is anybody's guess. If Zimmerman did indeed head Martin off in this way, that would naturally add to Martin's concern/fear, because it would block him off from his destination.

 

[leftysergeant]

A summation of Zimmerman's 911 calls with a link to the 47 page document released by the SAnford PD.
Trayvon Shooter's 911 Calls: Potholes, Piles of Trash—and Black Men

I hope he tries to use that and spin it as showing that he was an active participant in public safety work.

It would be nice of him to prove himself a psychopath.

 

[Information Analyst]

I don't think neighborhood watch has anything to do with this case. You don't need any such affiliation to report suspicious persons to police. And he wasn't out patrolling the neighborhood as part of a NW at the time, he was on a personal errand when he noticed Martin.

What was this "personal errand" that resulted in him parked up on a road he apparently didn't know the name of? It's clear from the start of his call to the police that he's in his stationary vehicle, because there's no engine sound, then you can then hear him exiting it, and the sound of air movement on the phone mic that's not present earlier in the call. Some sources suggest that Zimmerman was returning from this supposed errand, but Twin Trees Lane does not appear to be a natural route back to his own home, unless that was the location of the "errand," but that seems unlikely considering he doesn't seem to know the name of the road.

 

[WildCat]

What was this "personal errand" that resulted in him parked up on a road he apparently didn't know the name of?

I don't know, and why would it matter?

 

[Unabogie]

I don't know, and why would it matter?

It would help ascertain the truth of his story? And whether or not he made things up to cover his tracks? Why are you so hostile to everyone here about this case?

 

[johnny karate]

I don't know, and why would it matter?

It goes to the credibility of Zimmerman's story, and establishes his state of mind before the incident. Was he innocently going about his business when he just happened to see Martin? Or was he cruising around in violation of the rules of his neighborhood watch program, looking for "suspicious" people?

Considering the number of 911 calls this guy had been making, he either has a lot of amazingly eventful errands, or he thinks he's Batman.

 

[WildCat]

It would help ascertain the truth of his story? And whether or not he made things up to cover his tracks? Why are you so hostile to everyone here about this case?

How does it cover his tracks? What destination makes a legal difference?