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Trayvon Martin, Vigilante Justice

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"Trayvon Martin made a 911 call" might by itself have been a mistake; but if the report mentions details such as that Zimmerman's voice can be heard and the FBI is trying to clear up the audio, that information had to come from somewhere if it wasn't completely made up.
 
TheL8Elvis said:
According to:
http://abclocal.go.com/wls/video?id=8593399&syndicate=syndicate&section
Trayvon Martin made a 911 call.

At the 2:41 mark:

Trayvon Martin made a 911 call shortly before his death, and the fbi is attempting to determine if that recording, which captured Zimmermans voice in the background, can be audio enhanced to more clearly hear what was said. And that may very well be the key to what happens next.

When exactly did he have time to make that call ? I think this is an example of poor fact checking, but I guess we'll see ?
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You'd think such a revelation would warrant more than a few seconds mention at the end of a story, and thus far no one else is reporting it. We'll see.
 
Skeptic Ginger said:
How does that support the imaginary scenario:

The news video walking through the crime scene, (a different one than sgtbaker linked to) showed where the vehicle was parked. The map in post # 1657 matches the crime scene walk through. According to the news re-creation of the events, Z parked near the inside corner by the 1210 on the map on Twin Trees street and got out of his vehicle. I think the killing happened a little more toward the middle of the condo row but even if it had occurred near that end, there's no reason to think Z was on the other side of that row heading T off.

More than likely Z, if he did lose sight of T, did so before he went after him in between the condos. Z would not have lost sight of T after he rounded the corner where at that time, it would have been unmistakable to T that Z was following him.

If the map is correct showing where Trayvon's condo was, he would have reached his residence before he got to the other end of the condo row.

The scenario is consistent with Z weaving a tangled web of lies as he tried to cover up what actually happened. Let's say Z followed T who then turned and confronted and attacked Z. Trayvon was then shot in the altercation. Why say you lost sight of Trayvon and were returning to your vehicle when you were attacked from behind?

It's highly unlikely one would lose sight of Trayvon in that location. Yes, you could lose sight of Trayvon if you never got out of your vehicle. But once you got out and followed the kid down the sidewalk, you'd see him. And if his condo was on the other end of that row, and according to the girlfriend, Trayvon was worried about the guy following him, Trayvon was almost home. Why go back and attack someone from the back? And the girlfriend's testimony of what she heard on the phone is consistent with Z approaching T who stopped and challenged Z.

All of that could say the shooting was either in self defense or an accident during an altercation. But when you add in what looks like a lie, 'lost sight of Trayvon and was returning to his vehicle', the idiom of the tangled web looks very apt.
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I see your problem. Forget the Zimmerman's house and the 7-11, they are red herrings. Zimmerman was nowhere near his house, and there is a generic kwikimart closer.
You want the map http://www.mojoimage.com/free-image-hosting-10/7901retreatmap2.jpg which was linked to in post 1480. From Z's converse with the dispatcher he was on Twin Trees lane on the opposite side of the houses to the yellow X. If Martin goes around by the pathway at the top, and Zimmerman by the walkthrough, Z loses sight of Martin, but they meet at the yellow X.
 
I'm sure someone has already mentioned this, but Zimmerman's behavior don't at all line up with typical neighborhood watch guidelines. I'm in my neighborhood's Citizens on Patrol (COPs) program. We have to undergo some training, and the fact is emphasized that all we're doing is acting as extra eyes for the police. We are never to engage or interact with anyone in any way suspicious. We call in issues that need the attention of the Citizens Service Bureau, and if anything looks criminally suspicious, we call the police. We are prohibited from carrying weapons with us (even if you have a concealed carry permit--you may not carry while on patrol with the COPs program).

Most neighborhood watch programs are similar except that they don't involve actively patrolling the neighborhood.

Just wanted that out there so that people don't get the wrong idea of neighborhood watch programs based on this incident.
 
JoeTheJuggler said:
Evidence that he was attacked, for example. I don't see how you can plead self-defense when no one was attacking or even threatening to attack you.
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The law allows people to plead not guilty no matter what the evidence.
It allows them to assert a defense, no matter what the evidence.

It is up to the prosecution to make their claim appear unreasonable.
 
JoeTheJuggler said:
I'm sure someone has already mentioned this, but Zimmerman's behavior don't at all line up with typical neighborhood watch guidelines. I'm in my neighborhood's Citizens on Patrol (COPs) program. We have to undergo some training, and the fact is emphasized that all we're doing is acting as extra eyes for the police. We are never to engage or interact with anyone in any way suspicious. We call in issues that need the attention of the Citizens Service Bureau, and if anything looks criminally suspicious, we call the police. We are prohibited from carrying weapons with us (even if you have a concealed carry permit--you may not carry while on patrol with the COPs program).

Most neighborhood watch programs are similar except that they don't involve actively patrolling the neighborhood.

Just wanted that out there so that people don't get the wrong idea of neighborhood watch programs based on this incident.
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Zimmerman was told by the police liason with the Neighborhood Watch not to do the sort of things he did.
The NW handbook forbids carrying guns on patrol.
He appears to have appointed himself to do it his way, anyway, but the media keeps the 'Neighborhood Watch Captain' notion alive.
 
crimresearch said:
The law allows people to plead not guilty no matter what the evidence.
It allows them to assert a defense, no matter what the evidence.
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I should've written perhaps more carefully.

They can certainly assert self defense, but they have to prove it. (That is, self defense is an affirmative defense.)

Generally speaking there are 4 things the defense would need to prove: actual belief of threat of physical force, reasonableness of that belief, actual belief of the degree of that physical force, and reasonableness of that belief. FWIW, I think the stand your ground law only pertains to the last two. (That is, the FL law might soften those requirements.) I'm pretty sure they still have to prove the first 2.
 
crimresearch said:
Zimmerman was told by the police liason with the Neighborhood Watch not to do the sort of things he did.
The NW handbook forbids carrying guns on patrol.
He appears to have appointed himself to do it his way, anyway, but the media keeps the 'Neighborhood Watch Captain' notion alive.
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Thanks.

As a big believer in neighborhood watch type of programs, I think it's important people know these facts.
 
varwoche said:
Indeed!
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Then the rules of evidence for a Florida trial would be based on the Florida statutes such as FLS VII 90.

If there is a federal trial after the DoJ civil rights investigation then it would be in federal court and be based on the FRE.
 
Dancing David said:
I agree, that would be a new bomb of huge proportions, no one else is even echoing it yet.
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Again, I've had good success emailing reporters when curious about a case. Would anyone email the reporter and ask? Also, there's likely a local paper in Sanford and that paper may have a reporter on the case full time. It's worth inquiring if you want to strain out the rumor from fact.
 
crimresearch said:
Zimmerman was told by the police liason with the Neighborhood Watch not to do the sort of things he did.
The NW handbook forbids carrying guns on patrol.
He appears to have appointed himself to do it his way, anyway, but the media keeps the 'Neighborhood Watch Captain' notion alive.
Click to expand...
I don't think neighborhood watch has anything to do with this case. You don't need any such affiliation to report suspicious persons to police. And he wasn't out patrolling the neighborhood as part of a NW at the time, he was on a personal errand when he noticed Martin.

Hell around here they give neighborhood watch signs away at the police station, anyone can pick one up and put it in their window. There's no training involved, no forms to sign. The whole NW thing is a red herring.
 
TheL8Elvis said:
6:54 p.m. (www.clickorlando.com)
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Martin called girlfirend and said he was walking back from 7-11 with his hood up.

7:09:34 p.m. (page 46 of call logs)
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Zimmerman calls 911 and reports a suspicious black man "who looks like he's up to no good or he's on drugs or something..." with his hand in his waistband.

7:11:59 p.m. (page 46 of call logs)
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Zimmerman tells dispatch that [Martin] is running towards the back entrance. (page 46 of call logs)

7:12 p.m. (abcnews.go.com)
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Martin calls girlfriend - "He said this man was watching him, so he put his hoodie on. He said he lost the man," Martin's friend said.

7:13:12 p.m.(page 46 of call logs)
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Zimmerman says he will meet police by mailboxes, but then declines becuase he lost site of Martin

7:16 p.m. (approximate END of call)(mobile.reuters.com - call lasts 4 minutes)
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"Trayvon said, 'What, are you following me for,' and the man said, 'What are you doing here.' Call ends

7:16:11 p.m. (www.clickorlando.com)
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witness call

7:16:41 p.m. (www.clickorlando.com)
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witness call

7:17 p.m. (mobile.reuters.com)
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Police say they arrived at the scene at 7:17.

7:17:06 p.m. (www.clickorlando.com)
=========
witness call

7:17:15 p.m. (www.clickorlando.com)
=========
witness call

7:17:54 p.m. (www.clickorlando.com)
=========
witness call

7:18:00 p.m. (www.clickorlando.com)
=========
witness call

7:19:04 p.m. (www.clickorlando.com)
=========
witness call


SOURCES:
http://www.documentcloud.org/documents/327330-george-zimmerrman-911-call-history.html
https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/326700-full-transcript-zimmerman.html
http://www.thegrio.com/specials/tra...timeline-leaves-many-unanswered-questions.php
http://motherjones.com/politics/2012/03/what-happened-trayvon-martin-explained#transcript
http://abcnews.go.com/US/trayvon-ma...death-recounts/story?id=15959017#.T285yzEgcQJ
http://mobile.reuters.com/article/topNews/idUSBRE82I17520120320
http://www.clickorlando.com/news/La...tion/-/1637132/9613958/-/57edqqz/-/index.html
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Thank you for this. This is a huge help in understanding the case.

And, no, it sure as hell doesn't help Zimmerman.
 
WildCat said:
I don't think neighborhood watch has anything to do with this case.
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Except that it's reported that Zimmerman was in the neighborhood watch in nearly every news article about the incident. I think it's important to clarify that his behavior was not only not typical of that of NW volunteers but was in contradiction to how they're supposed to behave.

ETA: FWIW, I'd also bet money that if Zimmerman is charged in this incident and it makes it to court, his defense will mention his involvement in neighborhood watch.

Further, if Zimmerman is convicted of a crime, I think his motivation for being on the street looking for suspicious activity might be proffered as a mitigating circumstance in sentencing. There really is a difference between this crime (and I'm assuming it's a crime) and, for example, a pre-meditated murder based on the victim's being black, or even between this and a murder from a drug deal gone bad.
 
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