Trayvon Martin, Vigilante Justice

[leftysergeant]

I would assume that the "club house" would be that structure next to the swimming pool at the top of the map.

This is making less sense yet. This is just barely into the compound. Where did Z start following Martin? As soon as he turned in to the gate? Where was Z when he observed Martin entering? Where did they find Z's truck?

Z at some point expressed a concern about suspects leaving through the back gate, which would probably be that exit close to Martin's father's home.

It would be helpful if we had a map of the route that the little lunatic claims to have taken to the confrontation.

The only thing that is clear is that Martin had better reason to be any place that he could concieveably have been in the time frame that we can deduce from the phone calls than had Z.

 

[icerat]

It depends on each individual. When I first met my husband, he weighed about 150 and he's 5"11". He was very thin and even after 15 years have passed he's about 160 and still thin. In none of the pictures of Trayvon Martin does he look beefy or bulky. He was 17, going through the growing stages of adolescence.

Might just be the subjectivity. This was 25 years ago and not in the US. Standards for what is considered "thin" and "very thin" are possibly quite different

 

[Dancing David]

I may have missed this and I'm falling behind on the thread, but did anyone catch that the mention of blood and grass stains was not on the original police report but was added later?

http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/03/...ission-votes-no-confidence.html#storylink=cpy



I'm very distrustful of police reports that "remember" key details that just happen to support an officer who finds himself in hot water.

I'm not saying that proves it's false, just that we've been relying on this bit of evidence to show that Zimmerman showed signs of a fight. This appears to have been added later once it became apparent that such evidence was important.

Ouch that means it might make it through discovery but the redirect on that report would be painful.

Assuming the defense brings it up.

Note: IANAL

 

[Dancing David]

I emailed the reporter who wrote that and asked how he knew that, and I'll let you know what he says.

Thanks, I had read the scanned report so I am curious too.

 

[Kestrel]

This looks even more wack. Where was Z when he called 911? There is no reason Martin would have passed by his unit if he entered off of Oregon Ave. Z lived damned near as far away as you can get without leaving the compound. He killed Martin between the Oregon entrance and his father's place. Was he wandering about the area looking for something to report?

I don't think I would recognize half of the neighbors in an area that big. How would that doofus know who was supposed to be there or not? Looking at some of the inconsistancies in his story, I doubt that he has a good enough memory to remember that many people.

I suspect Zimmerman was driving back home or on his way out when he saw someone walking. In some areas, just being on foot is considered suspicious behavior. I looks like the Google Street View images were taken on a nice day in Sanford, but there are no pedestrians to be seen.

 

[Bikewer]

Previous arrests are generally not allowed in testimony. However, previous convictions certainly can.
An arrest without further legal action is generally covered under a state's "sunshine" law.

 

[Information Analyst]

I would assume that the "club house" would be that structure next to the swimming pool at the top of the map.

This is making less sense yet. This is just barely into the compound. Where did Z start following Martin? As soon as he turned in to the gate? Where was Z when he observed Martin entering? Where did they find Z's truck?

Z at some point expressed a concern about suspects leaving through the back gate, which would probably be that exit close to Martin's father's home.

It would be helpful if we had a map of the route that the little lunatic claims to have taken to the confrontation.

The only thing that is clear is that Martin had better reason to be any place that he could concieveably have been in the time frame that we can deduce from the phone calls than had Z.

Looking at the map and listening to Zimmerman's call, it's initially hard to work out exactly what he's describing. He gives an address of 1111 Retreat View Circle, which is the clubhouse, but says Martin is coming towards, and then past him, before he runs.

In attempting to direct the police he says: "you come to the clubhouse, you come straight in, and make a left.... actually you would go past the clubhouse...[] no you go in straight through the entrance and you then make a left... er... you go straight in, don't turn, and make a left..."

I think this only makes sense if Zimmerman was parked up in his vehicle on Twin Trees, just after the end of the street name is on the aerial view, as later in the call he says the responding officers will see his truck after make the "left turn," and this would give him enough of a view of Martin approaching to make the call.

Coming in the main entrance, Martin would have gone directly over the crossroads, and on to Twin Trees, which would have brought him towards and then past Zimmerman, as described by the latter. I initally thought that maybe Martin had got lost - hence was "looking around" to reorientate himself - but in fact this would have been his natural route back to where he was staying, via the footpath between/behind the buildings. If, after passing Zimmerman, Martin ran onto the footpath and then turned right towards where he was staying, Zimmerman would indeed have lost sight of him.

Again listening to Zimmerman's call to the police, what's remarkable for this "Neighborhood Watch captain" is that he doesn't appear able to adequately describe the area he's "patrolling," and doesn't actually identify Twin Trees by name, refering to it only as a "cut through."

 

[crimresearch]

Cow cookies. Z had no right to defend himself, under the law, after putting Martin in fear for his life.

The law allows people who are put in fear for their lives to use deadly force.

Martin is the victim. There is no way that Z could ever have been called such, even if Martin had beaten what little the slob had for brains out of his skull.

That is Hollywood.

Please provide a legal cite that says a person can legally be killed *after* they no longer pose a threat.

 

[crimresearch]

Are you saying that prior arrests are never discussed in jury trials?

Prior bad behavior is not supposed to be introduced as proof of guilt by itself.
Someone who has robbed a dozen banks can still be innocent of the charges the 13th time.

That leads to the TV fueled fantasy that it can never be brought up... any halfway competent prosecutor could think of more than one way to legitimately make sure that the jury knows about Zimmerman's pattern of behavior leading to violent confrontations.

 

[WildCat]

That leads to the TV fueled fantasy that it can never be brought up... any halfway competent prosecutor could think of more than one way to legitimately make sure that the jury knows about Zimmerman's pattern of behavior leading to violent confrontations.

And to show that they're going to bring up a charge for resisting arrest without violence?

 

[Checkmite]

The name of the charge isn't as important as a description of the event that led to it.

 

[WildCat]

The name of the charge isn't as important as a description of the event that led to it.

That event will not be brought up in any trial, except in sentencing.

 

[Checkmite]

It will if part of Zimmerman's defense is to claim that he would never confront anybody or use force unless he himself was threatened. The event proves he has no qualms about physical altercations when he is not directly threatened.

 

[TheL8Elvis]

Timeline

6:54 p.m. (www.clickorlando.com)
=========
Martin called girlfirend and said he was walking back from 7-11 with his hood up.

7:09:34 p.m. (page 46 of call logs)
=========
Zimmerman calls 911 and reports a suspicious black man "who looks like he's up to no good or he's on drugs or something..." with his hand in his waistband.

7:11:59 p.m. (page 46 of call logs)
=========
Zimmerman tells dispatch that [Martin] is running towards the back entrance. (page 46 of call logs)

7:12 p.m. (abcnews.go.com)
=========
Martin calls girlfriend - "He said this man was watching him, so he put his hoodie on. He said he lost the man," Martin's friend said.

7:13:12 p.m.(page 46 of call logs)
=========
Zimmerman says he will meet police by mailboxes, but then declines becuase he lost site of Martin

7:16 p.m. (approximate END of call)(mobile.reuters.com - call lasts 4 minutes)
=========
"Trayvon said, 'What, are you following me for,' and the man said, 'What are you doing here.' Call ends

7:16:11 p.m. (www.clickorlando.com)
=========
witness call

7:16:41 p.m. (www.clickorlando.com)
=========
witness call

7:17 p.m. (mobile.reuters.com)
=========
Police say they arrived at the scene at 7:17.

7:17:06 p.m. (www.clickorlando.com)
=========
witness call

7:17:15 p.m. (www.clickorlando.com)
=========
witness call

7:17:54 p.m. (www.clickorlando.com)
=========
witness call

7:18:00 p.m. (www.clickorlando.com)
=========
witness call

7:19:04 p.m. (www.clickorlando.com)
=========
witness call


SOURCES:
http://www.documentcloud.org/documents/327330-george-zimmerrman-911-call-history.html
https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/326700-full-transcript-zimmerman.html
http://www.thegrio.com/specials/tra...timeline-leaves-many-unanswered-questions.php
http://motherjones.com/politics/2012/03/what-happened-trayvon-martin-explained#transcript
http://abcnews.go.com/US/trayvon-ma...death-recounts/story?id=15959017#.T285yzEgcQJ
http://mobile.reuters.com/article/topNews/idUSBRE82I17520120320
http://www.clickorlando.com/news/La...tion/-/1637132/9613958/-/57edqqz/-/index.html

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

Anaylsis of where Zimmerman told the police phone line his truck was, matched against where Martin's body was found.

How does that support the imaginary scenario:

Z, more familar with the area, and who said he was near the cutthrough at 7:15, went through it at the other end of the block, losing sight of Martin, but placing himself ahead of him.
One minute later, Martin after running and walking fast, believes he's lost the weird guy, but finds he hasn't.

The news video walking through the crime scene, (a different one than sgtbaker linked to) showed where the vehicle was parked. The map in post # 1657 matches the crime scene walk through. According to the news re-creation of the events, Z parked near the inside corner by the 1210 on the map on Twin Trees street and got out of his vehicle. I think the killing happened a little more toward the middle of the condo row but even if it had occurred near that end, there's no reason to think Z was on the other side of that row heading T off.

More than likely Z, if he did lose sight of T, did so before he went after him in between the condos. Z would not have lost sight of T after he rounded the corner where at that time, it would have been unmistakable to T that Z was following him.

If the map is correct showing where Trayvon's condo was, he would have reached his residence before he got to the other end of the condo row.

The scenario is consistent with Z weaving a tangled web of lies as he tried to cover up what actually happened. Let's say Z followed T who then turned and confronted and attacked Z. Trayvon was then shot in the altercation. Why say you lost sight of Trayvon and were returning to your vehicle when you were attacked from behind?

It's highly unlikely one would lose sight of Trayvon in that location. Yes, you could lose sight of Trayvon if you never got out of your vehicle. But once you got out and followed the kid down the sidewalk, you'd see him. And if his condo was on the other end of that row, and according to the girlfriend, Trayvon was worried about the guy following him, Trayvon was almost home. Why go back and attack someone from the back? And the girlfriend's testimony of what she heard on the phone is consistent with Z approaching T who stopped and challenged Z.

All of that could say the shooting was either in self defense or an accident during an altercation. But when you add in what looks like a lie, 'lost sight of Trayvon and was returning to his vehicle', the idiom of the tangled web looks very apt.

 

[WildCat]

It will if part of Zimmerman's defense is to claim that he would never confront anybody or use force unless he himself was threatened. The event proves he has no qualms about physical altercations when he is not directly threatened.

And if they bring up that as evidence of a physical altercation a mistrial will be declared, or at least draw an admonishment from the judge. It's irrelevant to the current case..

They will have to show he instigated a physical confrontation with Martin.

 

[TheL8Elvis]

Trayvon Martin made 911 call ?

According to:
http://abclocal.go.com/wls/video?id=8593399&syndicate=syndicate&section
Trayvon Martin made a 911 call.

At the 2:41 mark:

Trayvon Martin made a 911 call shortly before his death, and the fbi is attempting to determine if that recording, which captured Zimmermans voice in the background, can be audio enhanced to more clearly hear what was said. And that may very well be the key to what happens next.

When exactly did he have time to make that call ? I think this is an example of poor fact checking, but I guess we'll see ?

 

[Checkmite]

If this timeline is correct, it suggests that Trayvon was killed less than a minute after the confrontation began.

 

[varwoche]

That event will not be brought up in any trial, except in sentencing.

You're probably right, but isn't this a matter of FA law?

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

.... If, after passing Zimmerman, Martin ran onto the footpath and then turned right towards where he was staying, Zimmerman would indeed have lost sight of him.

Yes, but not in the context of "and I was returning to my vehicle".

I wasn't talking about losing sight of Trayvon at some point prior to being on the sidewalk where the killing occurred. I was talking about losing sight of Trayvon in the context of then being in the act of returning to his vehicle when attacked from behind.