Trayvon Martin, Vigilante Justice

[TheL8Elvis]

If I am the shooter, and I am not certain the shootee is dead or fully incapacitated, I might well straddle, put weapon to their head and tell them to move their hands out to where they are fully visible. If there is motion (especially offensive motion) without hands coming out, cooty grass time. (If combat is fair, it is being done very incorrectly.)
Based on the so-far available info, I am fairly sure it was not self-defense per the law. I suspect it was hot-head. But I was not there, I do not know. Neither was Sharpton or any others who have fully made up their minds on this.

Could be that Martin was on top of Zimmerman ( as per what the witness reported seeing on the tv interview ) , perhaps even struggling for control of the gun at this point, and Zimmerman shot Martin in the chest, and then rolled over on top of him afterwards, and that's what Mary Cutcher saw. (if indeed she saw much of anything ... I admit, I find her testimony at this point to appear self serving)
That scenario doesn't contradict what we know, except perhaps Zimmermans own statement of being attacked form behind.

IDK what all that means under the SYG law. And FWIW, I think Zimmerman carries a lot of responsibility for the death simply for following Martin, although following someone is not illegal. IDK if just because Zimmerman was some sort of cop wannabe (someone many pages back described the term whacker, and it seemed appropriate) that means when push comes to shove he actually wanted to shoot someone. Maybe. But I think that's still a premature conclusion even based on his past record and behavior.

ETA: after re-reading I need to clarify zimmerman carries all the responsibility for the death and martin should never have been shot ... but it did happen, and I am trying to figure out the scenario based on what information has been released so far

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

Skeptic Ginger

If you could address this post about the the witness saying Martin was on top of Zimmerman, and this post about Mary Cutcher and the fact she didn't actually see what happened prior to the gunshot, I would appreciate it.

You could also address the issue of the football picture since you made some claims about that as well.

I did address that post. You have one witness claiming to have seen who was the aggressor based on clothing. We know how eye witness testimony isn't perfect.

You have another witness who saw a man straddling the dead person lying on the ground. You don't straddle a downed person you kneel beside them.

Weighing which of those two accounts is more reliable the second one is. Clothing to ID which person is which is less reliable than one person straddling a body. Clearly the second witness wasn't mistaking who was who.

When the police arrived, they reported finding Martin face-down and unresponsive, with a gunshot wound in the chest.

The witness who saw Z straddling T's body said Z was touching T's back. The witness statement is consistent with the police report.

Zimmerman claimed self-defense, telling police he had stepped out of his truck to check the name of the street he was on, when Martin attacked him from behind as he walked back to his truck.

Again, this is not consistent with the 911 call Z made. Neither is it consistent with the crime scene which was in the middle of a row of condos a fair distance from the street and any street signs.

A witness to the physical altercation just prior to the shooting stated that Martin was on top of Zimmerman and beating him up, while the older man yelled for help.[49] Another witness, Mary Cutcher, has said in a TV interview that "there was no punching, no hitting going on at the time, no wrestling",[50] but police say that she gave an official account to them that agreed with Zimmerman's story.[51][52] Cutcher and her roommate told CNN journalist Anderson Cooper that their own account of the incident to the police did not agree with Zimmerman's, and that they had demanded that the police retract that incorrect statement. They also said, about the police's attitude at the scene, that "they were siding with him [Zimmerman] from the start" and that they heard the pair in their backyard and a "very young voice" whining, with no sounds of a fight. They heard a gunshot; the crying stopped immediately, and they saw Zimmerman on his knees pinning Martin down on the ground.[53]

The statement was corroborated by a witness who claimed that Martin was on top of Zimmerman, beating him, as Zimmerman called for help.[49] Other witnesses stated that Martin was the one calling for help, and claimed that the police tried to "correct" them into changing their assertion to Zimmerman as the one calling for help.[61] A witness, Mary Cutcher, claimed that the cry was from Martin and said that she did not believe that Zimmerman acted in self defense, contending that she and her roommate heard Martin cry out, followed by a gunshot, whereupon they saw Zimmerman standing over his body.[58]

Martin's father said in interviews it was his son's voice. I don't know what he told police. In addition, that would be after being told his son was dead, three days after the initial police response which by that time they'd already decided not to charge Z. An upset father, police with confirmation bias, who knows? But we know Mr Martin says it is his son's voice and the mother said it was her son's voice.

I'm not positive this is the place but it is consistent with the news clip of the scene. (Colonial Village at Twin Lakes‎; 11500 Myrtlewood Drive; Sanford, FL 32771; (407) 688-2424 colonialprop.com‎) I'm trying to find the news video of the father walking through the crime scene but haven't yet.

How do you lose someone on that straight shot sidewalk between those rows of condos?


I also took WC's word for it the football picture was Trayvon at 14. No one has presented any pictures of the kid showing his looking like any kind of gang member, nor any evidence for that matter. The autopilot assumptions a black teen must be a gang banger is what this racism is all about.

 

[leftysergeant]

I was going to say the hand around thing was possible but not familiar with the specific weapon.BUT Massad Ayoob is extremely knowledgeable on weapons, I know how to do that and stop the weapon from firing much less recycling with certain pistols SO I now say yes for sure it could happen that way...

Just having too weak a grip on the weapon may cause a failure to properly extract and recycle. Your hand is supposed to keep the frame in one place while the slide travels to the rear. If nothing restrains the frame, the entire weapon travels in synch to the rear, no extraction.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

It's also hard to believe that Z would have had to go read a street sign to tell the police where he was. It's like saying you don't know the streets within a couple block radius of your home. It's possible but unlikely.

 

[leftysergeant]

It's also hard to believe that Z would have had to go read a street sign to tell the police where he was. It's like saying you don't know the streets within a couple block radius of your home. It's possible but unlikely.

Consider this statement in the context of a "block watch captain."

 

[WildCat]

It's also hard to believe that Z would have had to go read a street sign to tell the police where he was. It's like saying you don't know the streets within a couple block radius of your home. It's possible but unlikely.

And which police statement says that's what happened?

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

If I am the shooter, and I am not certain the shootee is dead or fully incapacitated, I might well straddle, put weapon to their head and tell them to move their hands out to where they are fully visible. If there is motion (especially offensive motion) without hands coming out, cooty grass time. (If combat is fair, it is being done very incorrectly.)
Based on the so-far available info, I am fairly sure it was not self-defense per the law. I suspect it was hot-head. But I was not there, I do not know. ...

That's not consistent with the witness's testimony on Anderson Cooper.

“One on each side, on his knees, with his hands on his back. I immediately thought, okay, obviously if it’s the shooter, he would have ran,” Cutcher detailed. “I thought he’s holding the wound, helping the guy taking a pulse, making sure he’s okay. When she called to him three times, everything okay, what’s going on? Each time he looked back, didn’t say anything and then the third time he finally said, ‘just call the police.’”

“But at that time it was so dark,” Lamilla added. “I just saw this person. When she started calling the police, I saw Zimmerman walking with — touching like his hair, like kind of like confused back and forth to the body.”

Lamilla and Cutcher described Zimmerman pacing around the body, following the shooting, and disputed that there was any indication of a fight.

Watch the two witnesses describe the scene of Martin’s shooting below via CNN:

We all have the picture of what we think went on in our heads.

The autopsy will clear a few things up. I wonder if anyone can explain how Trayvon ended up face down?

 

[WildCat]

And now the internet lynch mob moves into real life:

Members of the New Black Panther Party are offering a $10,000 reward for the "capture" of George Zimmerman, leader Mikhail Muhammad announced during a protest in Sanford today.

When asked whether he was inciting violence, Muhammad replied defiantly saying: "An eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth."

...The Southern Poverty Law Center says the New Black Panther Party, a black-separatist group founded in 1989, is "virulently racist and anti-Semitic," and its leaders have encouraged violence against whites, Jews and law officers.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/...ack-panthers-protest-20120324,0,1231157.story

How is this not incitement?

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

If you ignore them, WC, they'll go away. Give them attention and that's what they want.

 

[WildCat]

The autopsy will clear a few things up. I wonder if anyone can explain how Trayvon ended up face down?

Because that's how he fell after being shot?

 

[Roadtoad]

And now the internet lynch mob moves into real life:

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/...ack-panthers-protest-20120324,0,1231157.story

How is this not incitement?

It's incitement, no question. And the NBP is likely to get more people killed with this stupidity.

 

[TheL8Elvis]

I did address that post. You have one witness claiming to have seen who was the aggressor based on clothing. We know how eye witness testimony isn't perfect.

You have another witness who saw a man straddling the dead person lying on the ground. You don't straddle a downed person you kneel beside them.

Weighing which of those two accounts is more reliable the second one is. Clothing to ID which person is which is less reliable than one person straddling a body. Clearly the second witness wasn't mistaking who was who.

I have no idea how you 'weighed' those accounts. Did you forget to weigh the 911 call that says the guy in the white shirt was on top as well ? Corroboration from independent sources doesn't count more ? Corrobaration with Zimmermans story as well ?

You really believe that the imperfect eyewitness was confused about who was on top and who was on the bottom yelling help, even though it exactly happens to match Zimmermans story as well ? He confused a white hoody with a red sweater ???

That all corroborates zimmermans story.

But you find this lady reliable, who saw NOTHING prior to the shooting ... you somehow think what she has said means Zimmerman was on top of and beating up Martin ?? Is that what you think happened ?

http://www.dominionofnewyork.com/20...er-trayvon-martin-investigation/#.T2408TEgcQJ

Mary Cutcher, the witness, blasted the handling of the investigation by the Sanford police, in her interview with WFTV reporter, Daralene Jones. Cutcher said police hastily interviewed her and declined to record more of her observations until she harassed them.

“I said, ‘I know this was not self-defense. There was no punching, no hitting going on at the time, no wrestling,’” Cutcher said.

And the SPD claim what she said on tv is “inconsistent with her sworn testimony to police.”
http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news...tin-witness-tv-report-20120315,0,559932.story

But you find her more believable ? OK. I don't see it, but ....

 

[Checkmite]

The charge was "resisting arrest without violence". Something you see all the time wrt demonstrations all over the country, yet I doubt you get so outraged over those identical incidents.

I'm not "outraged" over this past incident. But of course it is relevant to determining the kind of person Zimmerman is, and merits mention. That's not "outrage", any more than us wanting a fair trial is tantamount to being a "lynch mob" no matter how many times you insist on characterizing it that way.

 

[Mumbles]

It's incitement, no question. And the NBP is likely to get more people killed with this stupidity.

The New Black Panther Party have always been a pack of idiots, which is why the survivors of the Black Panther Party want nothing to do with them. Doesn't change the fact that Zimmerman should be charged with manslaughter, at the very least.

I must say, I'm amused by the idea of Martin giving Zimmerman a royal beat down for 20 seconds, and yet Zimmerman having no wounds or markings beyond a bloody nose and a small cut on the back of his head. If he took a really vicious beating, he'd be covered in bruises, have missing teeth or fractured bones, and so forth.

 

[TheL8Elvis]

I also took WC's word for it the football picture was Trayvon at 14

Evidence has been provided he stopped playing football at 14.

. No one has presented any pictures of the kid showing his looking like any kind of gang member, nor any evidence for that matter. The autopilot assumptions a black teen must be a gang banger is what this racism is all about.

IDK about any gang pictures or anything else. You were going on about false representation, and didn't answer my question:

Again, in light of the evidence that he stopped playing football at 14 - doesn't that seem that showing the football picture of him is a false representation ?

 

[icerat]

Do you know how skinny a 6 ft tall person weighing 150 pounds is?


That's very thin.

No it's not. I was 6ft and weighed about 145 when I was 16. I was a fit athlete but by no means "very thin".

 

[Roadtoad]

The New Black Panther Party have always been a pack of idiots, which is why the survivors of the Black Panther Party want nothing to do with them. Doesn't change the fact that Zimmerman should be charged with manslaughter, at the very least.

I must say, I'm amused by the idea of Martin giving Zimmerman a royal beat down for 20 seconds, and yet Zimmerman having no wounds or markings beyond a bloody nose and a small cut on the back of his head. If he took a really vicious beating, he'd be covered in bruises, have missing teeth or fractured bones, and so forth.

Agreed on both points. But I'd rather the NBPs had simply stayed out of it. Ditto Sharpton, but he's too much of an opportunist to let this slide.

 

[crimresearch]

Evidence has been provided he stopped playing football at 14.




IDK about any gang pictures or anything else. You were going on about false representation, and didn't answer my question:

Again, in light of the evidence that he stopped playing football at 14 - doesn't that seem that showing the football picture of him is a false representation ?

A false representation of what?

Is the family under some compulsion to produce photos and documentation current to the minute? Hour? Week?

The 3 photos the media got hold of, including one in a hoodie, seem to indicate nothing except that the media got hold of 3 photos.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

No it's not. I was 6ft and weighed about 145 when I was 16. I was a fit athlete but by no means "very thin".

Whatever you believe you looked like at that height and weight, it is thin. People can judge for themselves.

 

[Roadtoad]

A false representation of what?

Is the family under some compulsion to produce photos and documentation current to the minute? Hour? Week?

The 3 photos the media got hold of, including one in a hoodie, seem to indicate nothing except that the media got hold of 3 photos.

Wins thread.