Bachmann on Piers Morgan

[Minoosh]

In other words, the victims of sexual assault should not be blamed for their own sexual behavior. Which is... another way of saying that there's nothing wrong with being a slut.

This loses me as well. Sexual assault is a synonym for rape. It doesn't matter how sexually active a woman is; forcible rape is a felony. Her mores do not excuse rape. Victims of sexual assault should not be blamed. I'm not sure if this is what you were trying to say.

 

[cwalner]

This loses me as well. Sexual assault is a synonym for rape. It doesn't matter how sexually active a woman is; forcible rape is a felony. Her mores do not excuse rape. Victims of sexual assault should not be blamed. I'm not sure if this is what you were trying to say.

No, he is saying that women should be punished and shamed for having too much sex, but that maybe rape is too extreme of a punishment.

That is at least how I read it.

 

[Ziggurat]

No, he is saying that women should be punished and shamed for having too much sex, but that maybe rape is too extreme of a punishment.

That is at least how I read it.

You're presuming I think that there's something wrong with being a slut. But I never said that there was. And as far as I can tell, the Slut Walk folks think there's nothing wrong with being a slut. Do you disagree? Do you think the Slut Walk folks think there is something wrong with being a slut? Do you think there's something wrong with being a slut?

 

[Skepticemea]

You're presuming I think that there's something wrong with being a slut. But I never said that there was. And as far as I can tell, the Slut Walk folks think there's nothing wrong with being a slut. Do you disagree? Do you think the Slut Walk folks think there is something wrong with being a slut? Do you think there's something wrong with being a slut?

The Slut Walk folks believe that victims of rape being described as sluts is a disgrace and have attempted to wrest the word away from vicious-minded misogynists who believe that the wearer of a short skirt is to blame for any subsequent sexual violence that comes their way.

 

[Ziggurat]

The Slut Walk folks believe that victims of rape being described as sluts is a disgrace and have attempted to wrest the word away from vicious-minded misogynists who believe that the wearer of a short skirt is to blame for any subsequent sexual violence that comes their way.

That didn't answer either of my questions. The reluctance of anyone to do so is... strange.

 

[A'isha]

That didn't answer either of my questions. The reluctance of anyone to do so is... strange.

Maybe because your insistence that people tell you whether they think being a "slut" is a bad thing or not has nothing to do with the explicitly-stated goals of the SlutWalk movement.

 

[cwalner]

You're presuming I think that there's something wrong with being a slut. But I never said that there was. And as far as I can tell, the Slut Walk folks think there's nothing wrong with being a slut. Do you disagree? Do you think the Slut Walk folks think there is something wrong with being a slut? Do you think there's something wrong with being a slut?

I have no problem with a woman being sexually promiscuous, if that is what you are getting at. However, despite your never having explicitly stated so, your repetition of this question and the way you phrase it strongly implies that you do.

 

[JoeTheJuggler]

You're presuming I think that there's something wrong with being a slut. But I never said that there was. And as far as I can tell, the Slut Walk folks think there's nothing wrong with being a slut. Do you disagree? Do you think the Slut Walk folks think there is something wrong with being a slut? Do you think there's something wrong with being a slut?

You are still equivocating with the term "slut". You're conflating the meaning that it has as a very offensive slur and the novel meaning (re-appropriated by "the Slut Walk folks") to mean dressing any way you choose without being victimized.

[ETA: http://www.fallacyfiles.org/equivoqu.html ]

For that matter, when it's used as a slur, it's actually talking about sexual behavior. The "Slut Walk folks" are specifically talking about having the freedom to dress however you like without being regarded as somehow inviting rape.

Do you think Rush Limbaugh used the term "slut" not as an insult for a woman who is sexually very active but as a term referring to having the freedom to dress any way she wants without being accused of inviting rape?


[ETA: Even in more general terms, you're at least conflating a meaning of the term "slut" which has to do with being sex-positive and empowered from the more traditional one, that is a decidedly pejorative term--the one listed as 2a in the OED: "A woman of a low or loose character; a bold or impudent girl; a hussy, jade." ]

 

[BenBurch]

You're presuming I think that there's something wrong with being a slut. But I never said that there was. And as far as I can tell, the Slut Walk folks think there's nothing wrong with being a slut. Do you disagree? Do you think the Slut Walk folks think there is something wrong with being a slut? Do you think there's something wrong with being a slut?

Nothing wrong with being a slut. In fact, I find sluts to be superior friends vs. prudes in every way.

 

[JoeTheJuggler]

That didn't answer either of my questions. The reluctance of anyone to do so is... strange.

I've been pointing out that you have been equivocating with the term. I find your question to be disingenuous because of that equivocation. I think it's a clumsy rhetorical trap you're trying to set rather than a question that could possibly advance the discussion in any meaningful way.

I think it's more "strange" that you're still equivocating with this term in this context.

For Rush to call a woman a slut (based on her testimony about the cost of contraceptives) is an insult by linguistic convention. He was not using the word slut to mean any sort of sex-positive women's empowerment.

 

[Ziggurat]

You are still equivocating with the term "slut". You're conflating the meaning that it has as a very offensive slur and the novel meaning (re-appropriated by "the Slut Walk folks") to mean dressing any way you choose without being victimized.

"Slut" is a noun, not a verb. So your description of its re-appropriated meaning is... grammatically inadequate. And the whole point of re-appropriation is to substitute the preferred meaning for the old insulting meaning. That's rather hard to accomplish if you simultaneously cling to the old meaning.

For that matter, when it's used as a slur, it's actually talking about sexual behavior. The "Slut Walk folks" are specifically talking about having the freedom to dress however you like without being regarded as somehow inviting rape.

Not so. They specifically include behavior in their description of themselves and their cause, and even explicitly include prostitutes under the term. So they are most certainly not solely concerned with attire.

Do you think Rush Limbaugh used the term "slut" not as an insult for a woman who is sexually very active but as a term referring to having the freedom to dress any way she wants without being accused of inviting rape?

I know for certainty that Rush intended it as an insult. I also know that Rush thinks that being a slut is a bad thing. I believe that the Slut Walk organizers do not think that being a slut is a bad thing. I do not know what you believe, because you won't say.

Let me be very clear on one point, though, because people seem to be reading far more into my position than I am actually stating: I am not defending Rush's comments. He was wrong to say what he said, and one can conclude that regardless of whether or not one thinks being a slut is a bad thing. But how much umbrage one should take at his use of the term is sensitive to how one views sluts.

 

[tyr_13]

And also, if one accepts the straw position that the real bad thing about Rush's attack was the use of one specific word.

 

[Ziggurat]

Nothing wrong with being a slut. In fact, I find sluts to be superior friends vs. prudes in every way.

OK. But if it's not bad to be a slut, it's not much of an insult to be called a slut either. Nobody takes much offense at being called "tall", even if it's somehow intended as an insult.

 

[Ziggurat]

And also, if one accepts the straw position that the real bad thing about Rush's attack was the use of one specific word.

Rightly or wrongly, much of the discussion of Rush's comments are, in fact, centered on that one word, including much of the criticism against him. Given this pre-existing context, I don't think my discussion is at all out of place, even if it doesn't constitute a complete discussion of the situation. But yes, you are certainly free to point out that people found other aspects of his commentary even more objectionable, and I do not claim that my discussion here address those other aspects.

 

[cwalner]

OK. But if it's not bad to be a slut, it's not much of an insult to be called a slut either.

Cool, good to know. Since I think there is nothing wrong with being dark skinned, then its not really an insult to call such a person a n-----.

No matter how much you try to dodge, the word 'slut' is specifically a pejorative to insult promiscuous women. Just because I, personally, have no problems with a woman being promiscuous, does not make the word 'slut' any less insulting.

 

[JoeTheJuggler]

OK. But if it's not bad to be a slut, it's not much of an insult to be called a slut either.

Yes it is, depending on which meaning of a word that has multiple meanings you're using. In fact, in the case of Rush's comments, it's a pretty horrific insult. Given the fact that he also used the term "prostitute" (for a law school student) your continued pretense that he was using an empowering term is disingenuous.

 

[JoeTheJuggler]

And also, if one accepts the straw position that the real bad thing about Rush's attack was the use of one specific word.

This too.

But I find Zig's biggest crime here to be equivocation (as if "slut" in "Slut Walk" is the same meaning Rush was using).

 

[A'isha]

Right. The problem isn't the word itself, but the intent behind the usage of the word.

SlutWalk's use of the word "slut" is not in any way equivalent to Rush's use of the word "slut", and SlutWalk's use of the word does not make Rush's use of the word any less sexist and vile.

Exactly the same way that Wu-Tang Clan's use of the n-word is not in any way equivalent to Tom Metzger's use of the n-word, and the Wu-Tang Clan's use of the word does not make Metzer's use of the word any less racist and vile.

 

[JoeTheJuggler]

"Slut" is a noun, not a verb.

There is a verb related to the noun. (The usage in question is obsolete.) But that's really beside the point. The Slut Walk was a specific reaction to the phrase "dress like a slut".

So your description of its re-appropriated meaning is... grammatically inadequate. And the whole point of re-appropriation is to substitute the preferred meaning for the old insulting meaning. That's rather hard to accomplish if you simultaneously cling to the old meaning.

You're still ignoring the simple fact that there are two separate meanings in current usage. Whether or not the "Slut Walk folks" would like to see the more traditional meaning go away is beside the point.

Rush was not using the re-appropriated meaning.

I know for certainty that Rush intended it as an insult. I also know that Rush thinks that being a slut is a bad thing. I believe that the Slut Walk organizers do not think that being a slut is a bad thing. I do not know what you believe, because you won't say.

I believe what I've been saying, that you have been equivocating. You are pretending that the people who use "slut" in a positive way are using it exactly the same as those using it in the traditional pejorative way.

You seem to be trying to excuse Rush's insult by pretending there is only one meaning of this term. (Or at the very least, you're pretending that the pejorative usage is the same as the empowering one.)

I believe women should be free to dress any way they choose without being victimized (and I believe it was wrong of that police officer to suggest that women somehow are partly to blame for being raped because of how they dress). I also believe women (and men) should have the right to any sexual behavior among consenting adults they choose without being insulted. I also believe that the religious institutions' assertion that they should get an exemption to the contraception requirement in the employer insurance "mandate" based on religious freedom is an invalid legal position. I believe that the contraception requirement is a good idea and is justified.

I reject the idea that the word "slut" is never much of an insult simply because it can sometimes be used in a way that isn't insulting.

 

[Ziggurat]

No matter how much you try to dodge, the word 'slut' is specifically a pejorative to insult promiscuous women.

Then the Slut Walk's goal of reappropriating the term is doomed to failure from the start. Because that part of their effort will only work if the word STOPS being an insult.

Just because I, personally, have no problems with a woman being promiscuous, does not make the word 'slut' any less insulting.

You've touched upon a distinction I haven't made before: that the definition of a word can carry its own value judgment. And I actually agree with that to a significant extent. But that's also why re-appropriation is usually doomed to failure. You mentioned the n-word, and that's actually an excellent case in point: despite claims of attempts to re-appropriate the word, it hasn't been re-appropriated. It's still just as much of an insult. All that's happened is that some speakers have been granted the privilege of using the insult with immunity, while it's been made even more of a taboo for everyone else. And that's the best the Slut Walk folks are likely to accomplish too in regards to "re-appropriation".