Bachmann on Piers Morgan

[Ziggurat]

I believe what I've been saying, that you have been equivocating. You are pretending that the people who use "slut" in a positive way are using it exactly the same as those using it in the traditional pejorative way.

I'm doing nothing of the sort. What I'm saying is that if you want one definition to win out, then you need to start treating its usage as if that preferred definition is what it means. By taking offense, even though offense was meant, you are ensuring that the term remains offensive. Which shoots the goal of re-appropriation in the foot. Now, I don't think the term needs to be re-appropriated, but the Slut Walk folks do.

 

[A'isha]

Then the Slut Walk's goal of reappropriating the term is doomed to failure from the start. Because that part of their effort will only work if the word STOPS being an insult.

That's strictly your opinion, however, and what you're doing is effectively calling the SlutWalk people hypocrites for not sharing that same opinion.

All that's happened is that some speakers have been granted the privilege of using the insult with immunity, while it's been made even more of a taboo for everyone else. And that's the best the Slut Walk folks are likely to accomplish too in regards to "re-appropriation".

No, what's been granted a "privilege" is the usage of the word in a specific way, no matter who uses it.

People aren't upset that Rush used the word "slut". They're upset he used it in that specific fashion. It has nothing to do with him being outside a "protected class of people", and everything to do with him being a demeaning sexist jerk.

 

[Ziggurat]

That's strictly your opinion, however, and what you're doing is effectively calling the SlutWalk people hypocrites for not sharing that same opinion.

I think their approach to re-appropriation is futile. I do not know if they are hypocritical, because I don't even know if they have weighed in on Rush.

No, what's been granted a "privilege" is the usage of the word in a specific way, no matter who uses it.

Rush isn't going to be able to call anyone the n-word without getting people upset. Don't tell me that Wu-Tang Clan doesn't have a privilege that Rush doesn't.

People aren't upset that Rush used the word "slut". They're upset he used it in that specific fashion.

Most people aren't interested in Slut Walk's re-appropriation agenda either. If you're not interested in such re-appropriation, then there is certainly nothing standing in the way of taking offense at his remarks.

 

[A'isha]

I think their approach to re-appropriation is futile. I do not know if they are hypocritical, because I don't even know if they have weighed in on Rush.

The position you've established, however, is that if they make any comment about Rush's use of the word, they have to accept it and accept it proudly, else they are failing to live up to one of their main principles and goals.

Rush isn't going to be able to call anyone the n-word without getting people upset. Don't tell me that Wu-Tang Clan doesn't have a privilege that Rush doesn't.

And that has more to do with the specific history of the n-word and its use to refer to people with unalterable inborn characteristics rather than adopted behaviors, rather than anything to do with "re-appropriation" in general.

The SlutWalk people are very specifically and deliberately opening up the use of the term to people of all genders and behaviors, which is why Rush, in the case of the word "slut", is not excluded from anything he's not excluding himself from.

Most people aren't interested in Slut Walk's re-appropriation agenda either. If you're not interested in such re-appropriation, then there is certainly nothing standing in the way of taking offense at his remarks.

And I'm telling you that even if you are interested in such re-appropriation, then there is still nothing standing in the way of taking offense at his remarks.

 

[JoeTheJuggler]

The Gay Community has largely successfully re-appropriated the words "gay" and "fag" and "queer".

However, it doesn't follow that these words cannot still be used offensively.

Even if you claim that the words only neutrally mean "homosexual" (in the same way you seem to be claiming that "slut" is only a neutral word referring to someone who is sexually very active), it can still be an insult for someone to call another person a "fag" (especially if it's only based on their own evaluation of someone else's sexuality).

Fluke did not use the word "slut" to describe herself. This really is a big deal.

The same is true of the "n-word". When used as an insult against another, it carries with it pejorative meaning (the racist stuff--that a person who is inferior to white people) and does not have the neutral meaning that of the words "black" and "African-American". When in-group black people use the "n-word" among themselves, it doesn't have that added racist meaning. It does not connote any inferiority.

The same, of course, is true of the word that labels my people: the "g-word":

 

[Ziggurat]

"When I use a word," Humpty Dumpty said in rather a scornful tone, "it means just what I choose it to mean -- neither more nor less."
"The question is," said Alice, "whether you can make words mean so many different things."
"The question is," said Humpty Dumpty, "which is to be master - - that's all."

 

[A'isha]

And that has what, exactly, to do with Rush's vile and sexist insult of Fluke?

 

[Ziggurat]

And that has what, exactly, to do with Rush's vile and sexist insult of Fluke?

Possibly nothing. But it's got everything to do with Slut Walk's efforts at re-appropriation.

 

[BenBurch]

OK. But if it's not bad to be a slut, it's not much of an insult to be called a slut either. Nobody takes much offense at being called "tall", even if it's somehow intended as an insult.

Caught you! I was fishing for that exact response.

False Equivalency. :-D

Just like it is improper to call a person of African heritage the N-word, but perfectly OK for them to use the word referring to themselves, YOU have no standing to call somebody a slut. In your mouth, it is an insult and a pejorative.

Just like "Dyke".

Just like "Faggot".

When a oppressed class rises up from its oppression, it is often the case that the pejorative used to demonize them is "owned" by them and they use it but usually in a way to remind themselves of the oppression that still exists. It does not legitimize the word for others in the slightest.

 

[Ziggurat]

Just like it is improper to call a person of African heritage the N-word, but perfectly OK for them to use the word referring to themselves, YOU have no standing to call somebody a slut. In your mouth, it is an insult and a pejorative.

In other words, you like the idea of privileging certain speakers over others. You're in complete agreement with Humpty Dumpty, provided the right people get to be the "masters".

I disagree. I think such double standards (and make no mistake, what you're supporting is a double standard) are corrosive, and help Balkanize society.

 

[johnny karate]

Caught you! I was fishing for that exact response.

False Equivalency. :-D

Just like it is improper to call a person of African heritage the N-word, but perfectly OK for them to use the word referring to themselves, YOU have no standing to call somebody a slut. In your mouth, it is an insult and a pejorative.

Just like "Dyke".

Just like "Faggot".

When a oppressed class rises up from its oppression, it is often the case that the pejorative used to demonize them is "owned" by them and they use it but usually in a way to remind themselves of the oppression that still exists. It does not legitimize the word for others in the slightest.

Unfortunately, that is incorrect. At least according to Zigguarat's arbitrary and completely made-up idea of how "reappropriation" is supposed to work.

What we can't do is allow for any of the nuance or complexity we would usually see in language, and must therefore demand that reappropriation be absolute in practice, or written off as irrational and nonsensical.

 

[BenBurch]

In other words, you like the idea of privileging certain speakers over others. You're in complete agreement with Humpty Dumpty, provided the right people get to be the "masters".

I disagree. I think such double standards (and make no mistake, what you're supporting is a double standard) are corrosive, and help Balkanize society.

The "privileged class" is the individual. That plus the fact that you are ignoring the way the world works makes this a VERY stupid argument. Would you care to save face by changing your mind?

 

[Ziggurat]

The "privileged class" is the individual.

No it isn't. Don't kid yourself.

That plus the fact that you are ignoring the way the world works makes this a VERY stupid argument. Would you care to save face by changing your mind?

I'm not ignoring the way the world works. I'm quite aware of the fact that many efforts at "re-appropriation" really just Balkanize language, which is exactly what's happened in the case of the n-word.

 

[BenBurch]

Lie to yourself all you want, Zig, but you are about as wrong as possible. The world does not work the way your ideology demands, and you cannot bully it into working that way.

 

[Ziggurat]

Lie to yourself all you want, Zig, but you are about as wrong as possible. The world does not work the way your ideology demands, and you cannot bully it into working that way.

Is this really what you've been reduced to? Merely insisting that I'm wrong?

 

[A'isha]

Possibly nothing. But it's got everything to do with Slut Walk's efforts at re-appropriation.

No it doesn't. The SlutWalk people aren't unilaterally claiming the word "slut" suddenly has a different meaning such that people who don't know that meaning are mislead when the word is used. They're acknowledging that the word currently has a meaning, and are saying they want to try and change that meaning in common usage.

You know, the way language actually works, Ziggurat. Unless you expect to see someone climb out of a single-horse-drawn two-wheeled carriage when they say they're arriving in a cab.

 

[Pardalis]

There's also a double standard about sexual proclivity.

Women who are "sluts" are considered shameful prostitutes, but guys who are "sluts" are considered successful. They got it going for themselves.

 

[BenBurch]

Is this really what you've been reduced to? Merely insisting that I'm wrong?

You admit yourself it's not how the world works.

And you say you think it should be different.

Therefore you want to change the world to correspond with your ideology.

Well, in order to do that you need to be able to do something ideological bullies never even consider;

Convince people that you are right by making a persuasive argument on the rightness of your case, which you have not done.

All you have done is whinge about privileged classes - well that isn't an argument, but more "class warefare" bullying on your part. In fact the people we are talking about, gay, lesbian, black, women, are among the LEAST privileged people in this society, so not only are you not winning friends and influencing people with your argument, you are actually blaming the victim and working against their recovery from that victimization.

 

[a_unique_person]

The "strange family of inbred weirdos" comment was out of bounds. Disgusting.
Marron's comment was also disgusting.

Not too surprising that now Maher has rushed to Limbaugh's defense. He's doing it to deflect criticism from himself.

Family are out of bounds.

 

[Ziggurat]

All you have done is whinge about privileged classes - well that isn't an argument, but more "class warefare" bullying on your part. In fact the people we are talking about, gay, lesbian, black, women, are among the LEAST privileged people in this society, so not only are you not winning friends and influencing people with your argument, you are actually blaming the victim and working against their recovery from that victimization.

I have done nothing of the sort. I am not working against the recovery of anyone, and this is a cheap attempt at an ad hominem on your part. Asserting the privilege to use a word that no one else is allowed to use isn't recovery. And that's the whole point: blacks are no better off because they can use the n-word. It has not actually helped them one bit. And I'm hardly alone in saying so.