Trayvon Martin, Vigilante Justice

[WildCat]

EDIT: Not that this isn't exactly the kind of messy arguments surrounding self-defenses that have been going around for years and years.

Which is why I don't think the "stand your ground" law is very relevant here.

 

[Caper]

It kind of reminds me of the Duke Lacrosse case. Except for the part where I think this guy might be actually guilty. You see the same interest groups wanting so much for this case to represent their agenda (a good agenda). Even this whole trying to describe the killer as white, so he can better fit the narrative. I just hope a propped investigation can be followed and justice can be done. Though it looks to me that, it may not be possible.

 

[Unabogie]

It kind of reminds me of the Duke Lacrosse case. Except for the part where I think this guy might be actually guilty. You see the same interest groups wanting so much for this case to represent their agenda (a good agenda). Even this whole trying to describe the killer as white, so he can better fit the narrative. I just hope a propped investigation can be followed and justice can be done. Though it looks to me that, it may not be possible.

They described the killer as white because the police report described him as white.

 

[Bob001]

Policy question: Suppose anyone licensed to carry a concealed firearm (as Zimmerman apparently was) also was required to carry pepper spray or some other non-lethal weapon? Seems like at least part of the problem here is that, IF Zimmerman legitimately felt threatened (an issue still to be resolved), in his mind he had no choice but to suffer grievous injury or shoot somebody. Police-grade pepper spray or a collapsible baton would have given him an alternative to deadly force, and using a firearm against an unarmed person would be harder to explain away as self-defense.

 

[leftysergeant]

Then it's weird that she would list everything else in chronological order and just throw in, "he was on the porch and this man killed him."

She was probably a bit more traumatized than any of the witnesses more immediately involved, thus likely to say a lot of things that seem disconnected with reality.

Had Martin made it home, then returned to confront fatso, it seems that she would have heard the shot and gotten worried.

The police would have probably been there as well by that time. The 911 calls appear to have been made more or less simultaneously with the time that the suspect was on the phone with the cops.

Had he followed M artin all the way to the town house, he would have known to break off pursuit and wait for the cops.

That Martin still had the tea and Skittles shows that he did not make it home.

The father's GF has nothing singnificant to add to the timeline.

 

[leftysergeant]

Although I am curious as to why the police, who had his cellphone, didn't contact her, either.

Maybe because they are ignorant, poorly trained crackers not that worried about a dead black prowler.

 

[Caper]

They described the killer as white because the police report described him as white.

Hitler would be rolling in his grave if he read that police report.

 

[Unabogie]

Hitler would be rolling in his grave if he read that police report.

So what? You made the assumption that people "wanted" Zimmerman to be white, but they were only reacting to the official police report. Zimmerman is a German name is it not? And the police report said he was white? So the assumption that the shooter was white was entirely reasonable.

 

[Unabogie]

Here's another bit of evidence. Another witness claims that even though there may have been a scuffle, at the time of the shooting, there wasn't.

http://www.wftv.com/news/news/witness-sanford-police-blew-us-teen-slaying/nLSqk/

Cutcher said a cry for help got her attention on the day Trayvon Martin was shot and killed in her backyard by Zimmerman, who was a neighborhood vigilante.

Cutcher said that until now, she ignored repeated attempts by national and local media to share what she saw, partially out of fear.
"We said, 'Is everything OK? And he just looked at us. Selma [another witness] asked him again, 'What's up, what's going on, everything OK? And he just said, 'Call the police,' kind of nonchalantly, kind of like, 'Leave me alone,' '' Cutcher said.
According to a partial police report, Cutcher is one of six witnesses that Sanford police took a statement from.

Cutcher said it was short, and police never questioned her in detail until after she repeatedly reached out to them.

"Blew us off, and I called him back again and I said, "I know this was not self-defense. There was no punching, no hitting going on at the time, no wrestling,'" Cutcher said.

Cutcher said she believes whatever confrontation there was, it ended before they got to her backyard.

Did she see this? Did they scuffle and then Martin ran into her backyard? I thought the shooting happened off the street. If Zimmerman continued to pursue Martin and they ended up in a backyard, then Zimmerman could have been screaming when they were fighting, but it was Martin screaming before he was killed. I have to admit that to my ears, listening to the tape, the screaming ends as soon as the shot is fired. I'm not sure what to make of that. Would you scream as you shot someone but stop as soon as the gun went off? Maybe.

 

[RobRoy]

All I am talking about is the criminal background check. That's the only thing I am saying they took on his word, nothing having to do with the night in question other than procedure.

Oh, sorry. I misread your post. Please don't shoot me!

 

[leftysergeant]

Did she see this? Did they scuffle and then Martin ran into her backyard? I thought the shooting happened off the street. If Zimmerman continued to pursue Martin and they ended up in a backyard, then Zimmerman could have been screaming when they were fighting, but it was Martin screaming before he was killed. I have to admit that to my ears, listening to the tape, the screaming ends as soon as the shot is fired. I'm not sure what to make of that. Would you scream as you shot someone but stop as soon as the gun went off? Maybe.

Inconsistant with self-defense. He was pursuing an attacker and didn't tell the witness he had been attacked and needed the police right away?
At this point, Martin would have been justified to have killed fatso.

I don't even know how the little sociopath got a permit to pack. He has a restraining order on his record for domestic violence.

 

[TheL8Elvis]

Here's another bit of evidence. Another witness claims that even though there may have been a scuffle, at the time of the shooting, there wasn't.

http://www.wftv.com/news/news/witness-sanford-police-blew-us-teen-slaying/nLSqk/

Did she see this? Did they scuffle and then Martin ran into her backyard? I thought the shooting happened off the street. If Zimmerman continued to pursue Martin and they ended up in a backyard, then Zimmerman could have been screaming when they were fighting, but it was Martin screaming before he was killed. I have to admit that to my ears, listening to the tape, the screaming ends as soon as the shot is fired. I'm not sure what to make of that. Would you scream as you shot someone but stop as soon as the gun went off? Maybe.

I don't see anything she said contradicted by what was on the news clip in this post. Both sets of statements seem to be compatible. I assume he went past that lady in his pursuit, and then ended up eventually in the back/side yard where the shooting happened. At least that is what I gather from what I have read here so far.

 

[Roadtoad]

Things seem to be looking worse for Zimmerman, and the SPD, if what we're reading is any indication.

 

[Unabogie]

I don't see anything she said contradicted by what was on the news clip in this post. Both sets of statements seem to be compatible. I assume he went past that lady in his pursuit, and then ended up eventually in the back/side yard where the shooting happened. At least that is what I gather from what I have read here so far.

Thanks, I'm having a hard time understanding the sequence of events to a high degree of certainty. If anyone has more time than I do, a timeline would be helpful. Where did the first fight take place? Where was the shooting? Is there a Google Map of the locations?

 

[sgtbaker]

As reported by the Miami Herald:

I don't think the father's girlfriend witnessed anything, or Martin's dad would have known what happened right away.

This also leads me to believe the shooting didn't happen very close to his house, it would have been hard to miss all the police and ambulances and such.

​

I am not saying she witnessed anything other than happening to glance out the window and see him on the patio. The news was reporting, in the beginning, that this happened 70 yards from the father's girlfriends back door.

 

[RobRoy]

I don't even know how the little sociopath got a permit to pack. He has a restraining order on his record for domestic violence.

It appears to be mutual and I can't determine if there was an actual restraining order or not. The articles mention that it was filed, but not if it was accepted (or whatever the legal term is). Everything else is just accusations, none of which would preclude him from a conceal-to-carry.

 

[Unabogie]

It appears to be mutual and I can't determine if there was an actual restraining order or not. The articles mention that it was filed, but not if it was accepted (or whatever the legal term is). Everything else is just accusations, none of which would preclude him from a conceal-to-carry.

Wow, you know that actually demonstrates a pattern, in my opinion. It is an MO.

He goes to her house "just to check up on her". Then he escalates the situation by pushing her and she runs up and calls the police. But in his version of events, it was the victim who was violent, not him. In his version, he merely reacted to an assault on HIM.

In both cases, he accosts people where he had no right to do so, ends up in a scuffle, and then blames the victim.

The guy seems completely unhinged.

 

[sgtbaker]

I don't see anything she said contradicted by what was on the news clip in this post. Both sets of statements seem to be compatible. I assume he went past that lady in his pursuit, and then ended up eventually in the back/side yard where the shooting happened. At least that is what I gather from what I have read here so far.

I remember the police saying that according to the investigation notes, they made three attempts to contact this woman and it wasn't until after the third attempt that she came in to give an official statement.

 

[LTC8K6]

What if this was a rhetorical question?

What if it had an ulterior motive?

 

[LTC8K6]

Yes, they didn't even contact the last person Martin spoke to. I mean, how hard would it be to look at the call log of a cell phone?

Can they just look through Martin's personal items without a warrant right there at the scene?

Also, they spent a while trying to revive him.

Was his phone right with him, or did it possibly take them time to find it?

Was it possibly broken?