• Security incident: ISF was recently accessed by intruders. Please change your password, and change it anywhere else you used it. Read more

Trayvon Martin, Vigilante Justice

Status
Not open for further replies.
http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/lookout...-were-barred-arresting-trayvon-134007644.html

"Zimmerman provided a statement claiming he acted in self defense, which at the time was supported by physical evidence and testimony," Sanford City Manager Norton Bonaparte Jr. wrote in a letter released publicly Wednesday evening. "By Florida Statute, law enforcement was PROHIBITED from making an arrest based on the facts and circumstances they had at the time."
Click to expand...

Yes, this appears to be FL law.

Bonaparte Jr. also addresses a claim made by Martin's father, Tracey Martin: that a law enforcement official told Tracey Martin that Zimmerman wasn't initially arrested because he had a squeaky clean image (in fact, Zimmerman had been charged in connection with assaulting a cop, though the charge was dropped).

Bonaparte Jr. writes that the official was merely telling Martin Sr. how Zimmerman had portrayed himself. "We believe Mr. Martin may have misconstrued this information," he adds.
Click to expand...

Sounds like the truth there.

Zimmerman, a white Hispanic
Click to expand...
What is that?
 
sgtbaker said:


I don't understand what happened to this. Why is this not being reported.

The first news clip says one of the witnesses, the fight occured under his window, the morning after the altercation stated that he saw Zimmerman on the bottom of the scuffle crying for help.
Click to expand...

This is what I heard the man interviewed say:

the guy on the bottom, who I believe had a red sweater on, was yelling 'help help'. I told him to stop and I was calling 911.
And then when I got upstairs and looked down, the person that was on top beating up the other guy, was the one laying in the grass, and I believe he was dead at that point.

This seems to be relevant to all the claims that it was martin screaming for help.
 
sgtbaker said:
They also interviewed Martin's father and father's girlfriend. It's unclear what she meant but she said that he was just on the porch and then he was gone. That indicates that Martin may have made it home and then possibly went back to confront Zimmerman. (correction, she said, "he was walking home from the store, he was sitting on the porch and this man killed him")
Click to expand...
I don't think that's the case at all. Martin's father was completely unaware of the shooting until he reported his son missing 12 hours later, at which point police came to his house to tell him the bad news.
 
LTC8K6 said:
"Zimmerman provided a statement claiming he acted in self defense, which at the time was supported by physical evidence and testimony," Sanford City Manager Norton Bonaparte Jr. wrote in a letter released publicly Wednesday evening. "By Florida Statute, law enforcement was PROHIBITED from making an arrest based on the facts and circumstances they had at the time."
Click to expand...

Sounds like the truth there.
Click to expand...

I don't know if it's common practice to go on a person of interest's word (I don't know how to word that. Is he still a suspect when he admits to the shooting?), during an investigation. Zimmerman may or may not have been honest but I just feel like the investigators should know from their own search. Zimmerman very well may have said his record was clean because he had no convictions, which is what should count.
 
WildCat said:
I don't think that's the case at all. Martin's father was completely unaware of the shooting until he reported his son missing 12 hours later, at which point police came to his house to tell him the bad news.
Click to expand...

Did you watch the news clip? They were interviewing Martin's father and father's girlfriend on camera, I am going by what she said, "he was on his way back home, I'm living down here, he was sitting out on the porch, and this man he killed him?" Maybe she saw him on the porch and then he went back to confront him.

I have to admit, I am a little leary about the conversation with his girlfriend. If she was talking to him, was a witness to how the fight went down, why would she wait three full weeks to come forward with that? The police asked for any witnesses to come forward. Your boyfriend was killed seconds after talking to you, you hear the fight start and are positive that the other man was the aggressor, he is not being arrested for lack of evidence and you don't come forward?

Although I am curious as to why the police, who had his cellphone, didn't contact her, either.
 
Last edited:
triforcharity said:
I have to respectfully disagree.

How about this. You and I get in a fight. At some point, I start "winning" the fight.

During the fight, you get a bloody nose, and while we're on the ground wrestling back and forth, you scrape your head.

At what point would you consider your life to be in danger?

I'm just going by the scrums that I have been in, and received MUCH worse injuries that what Zimmerman appears to have, and never, not once, been in fear of my life.

Not just that, but he did not meet force with force. That is a KEY part of the Florida law.

Also, as an asside, I noticed in the police report that the officer who put handcuffs on Zimmerman made mention of the grass and moisture on Zimmerman's clothes. However, what it DOESN'T mention (and maybe it's in another report that is not public) is that there was blood splatter.

IF he was pinned down by Martin, and say Martin was choking him, and he was able to get his gun and fire at Martin point blank while Martin was on top of him, he would have been COVERED in blood on his front.

Nothing about that.

So, something tells me, (and again, this is just speculation) that Martin was at a distance. Like, more than 10' or so. If it had been point blank, Zimmerman would have had blood splatter on him. If he had shot him while Martin was on top, he would have been covered in blood. (Gravity would have forced Martin's now lifeless body to give out, falling on top of Zimmerman. Blood would be all OVER Zimmerman. Also, in the course of getting up, Zimmerman would have most likely rolled Martin off of him, which would have put him face up in the grass, not face down.


But again, this is just my speculation, and assumptions, based on my reasoning and understanding of the facts.
Click to expand...

In the situation you describe the problem is not that the injuries were minor however. The problem is that the fight was mutually engaged in. It's the other details that make the case, not the injuries, that show he shouldn't have been in fear of his life.

How about this. You and I get in a fight. I didn't want to be in a fight at all. How badly should I have to be beaten before I pull my gun or knife? How am I to know which blow will incapacitate or kill me when any one of them could?

The 'force with force' hierarchy is well and good unless you don't have the next step available to you. Without a baton, stun gun, or spray, you can't make the next step.

Obviously the next step should be then, "I have a gun, stop or I'll use it," and not, 'bang'. Well, unless you're being choked out of course, which wasn't the case here. But let's say you were being choked out and got free, got space, then drew your weapon. You'd still be justified in using it if the other person came at you again.


EDIT: Not that this isn't exactly the kind of messy arguments surrounding self-defenses that have been going around for years and years.
 
Last edited:
sgtbaker said:
I don't know if it's common practice to go on a person of interest's word (I don't know how to word that. Is he still a suspect when he admits to the shooting?), during an investigation. Zimmerman may or may not have been honest but I just feel like the investigators should know from their own search. Zimmerman very well may have said his record was clean because he had no convictions, which is what should count.
Click to expand...

Well, there were no other eye witnesses to the critical part.
 
Last edited:
sgtbaker said:
I don't know if it's common practice to go on a person of interest's word (I don't know how to word that. Is he still a suspect when he admits to the shooting?), during an investigation. Zimmerman may or may not have been honest but I just feel like the investigators should know from their own search. Zimmerman very well may have said his record was clean because he had no convictions, which is what should count.
Click to expand...

It wasn't just Zimmerman's word. According to the statement: ". . . which at the time was supported by physical evidence and testimony." In the simplest of terms, you shoot someone, claim self-defense, and everyone around you says it was also self-defense, and the physical evidence supports that as well. I'm not making any conclusions regarding Zimmerman himself, just that it appears (emphasis here for emphasis) the police did everything by the book.

There's a nice little caveat in that statement as well "at the time".
 
sgtbaker said:
Did you watch the news clip? They were interviewing Martin's father and father's girlfriend on camera, I am going by what she said, "he was walking home from the store, he was right on the porch and this man killed him?"
Click to expand...

I interpreted it to mean: earlier in the evening he was sitting on my porch, and now he is dead. because she was in disbelief of the whole situation

I did not interpret her statement to mean he got back to the porch then left again.
 
I really hate messy situations like this. I just end up feeling bad for everyone involved.
 
LTC8K6 said:
I think you are talking about a different case. Are you sure you have the right thread?
Click to expand...

Yes, they didn't even contact the last person Martin spoke to. I mean, how hard would it be to look at the call log of a cell phone?
 
TheL8Elvis said:
I interpreted it to mean: earlier in the evening he was sitting on my porch, and now he is dead. because she was in disbelief of the whole situation

I did not interpret her statement to mean he got back to the porch then left again.
Click to expand...

Then it's weird that she would list everything else in chronological order and just throw in, "he was on the porch and this man killed him."
 
LTC8K6 said:
Well, there were no other eye witnesses to the critical part.
Click to expand...

Admittedly so. All I am saying is there appears to be important parts of the investigation that were not done. None of this is evidence to Zimmerman's guilt.
 
RobRoy said:
It wasn't just Zimmerman's word. According to the statement: ". . . which at the time was supported by physical evidence and testimony." In the simplest of terms, you shoot someone, claim self-defense, and everyone around you says it was also self-defense, and the physical evidence supports that as well. I'm not making any conclusions regarding Zimmerman himself, just that it appears (emphasis here for emphasis) the police did everything by the book.

There's a nice little caveat in that statement as well "at the time".
Click to expand...

All I am talking about is the criminal background check. That's the only thing I am saying they took on his word, nothing having to do with the night in question other than procedure.
 
sgtbaker said:
Did you watch the news clip? They were interviewing Martin's father and father's girlfriend on camera, I am going by what she said, "he was on his way back home, I'm living down here, he was sitting out on the porch, and this man he killed him?" Maybe she saw him on the porch and then he went back to confront him.
Click to expand...
As reported by the Miami Herald:
When police approached Trayvon’s body on the grassy path between the townhouse back porches, they found no I.D. on him. Police ran his fingerprints, but found no record that would help identify him.

When he didn’t return back to the townhouse, it would be another 12 hours before Tracy Martin found out his son was dead.

“I started making calls to see if he was arrested,” he said.

Calls to 911 led him to missing persons, where he left a description of his son. Soon a marked patrol car followed by detectives arrived at Green’s rented townhouse.

“It was drizzling a bit, I said, ‘lets go in the house.’ He [the detective] pulled out a card and said he was from major crimes. Then he said he wasn’t sure, he had sketchy details, but there was an altercation, and Trayvon was shot once in the chest.”
Click to expand...
I don't think the father's girlfriend witnessed anything, or Martin's dad would have known what happened right away.

This also leads me to believe the shooting didn't happen very close to his house, it would have been hard to miss all the police and ambulances and such.

​
 
Last edited:
Status
Not open for further replies.

Share this page

ISF - Join now!

Every member here is approved by hand. No bots, no spam, just people who care about evidence and honest debate.

Membership is free!

Create your free account

Back
Top Bottom