Trayvon Martin, Vigilante Justice

[RandFan]

It overrides legal precedents because it's a change in the law.

I think you're again mixing up moral and legal issues. I won't disagree that the case is very disturbing morally. A black kid shot in a southern state without any evidence of wrongdoing on his part and the law protects his admitted killer. How could anyone not see the echoes of history? But cases aren't tried on moral merit.

I'm confusion nothing. From the start I've conceded that this could be the case.

"Sometimes the law is an ass"

Hopefully it's okay still to speak the truth.

 

[Gazpacho]

Then why respond to me as if you know?

I'm not responding "as if I know," I'm responding because you asked me the question. I'm not your enemy here.

 

[sgtbaker]

This ISN'T speculation. Let me reiterate it.

There is a bit of speculation in your argument. You are suggesting that Zimmerman knew the outcome was going to result in a death before beginning the pursuit. In the 911 call, after Zimmerman said he didn't want to say his address outloud, he asked if the police could call him, when they arrived, so he could say where he was. That, at least implies that Zimmerman's intent was to follow Martin and give police his location. There is still, as far as I know, zero evidence as to exactly what went down between the end of the phone call and the fatal shot.

 

[Dancing David]

That's silly. He was shot for being male.

And seventeen

 

[Dancing David]

If there is no reason to chase after someone, and you were told not to, and it is reasonable for you to know that the encounter could end in death, is that okay? HELL NO!

Is that really difficult to understand? It's not okay to create a situation that will lead to the death of another even if that death results from self defense. Not now not ever, unless this SYG over rides all other legal precedent.

I would be interested to now what crim thinks but apparently he has removed himself from the discussion. I would have to wade through 15 pages of posts.

Ah, but you are talking about reasonable, and that will be for the jury to decide, of the judge if a bench trial is chosen; if there is a trial.

It depends exactly on what they think.

 

[Dancing David]

It's not okay to create a situation that will likely lead to the death of another even if that death results from self defense.

This ISN'T speculation. Let me reiterate it.

Sorry RF, that is a statement of opinion (and one I agree with), statute in FL mat not cover this and again it will come down to a jury or judge deciding at what point reasonable became unseasonable.

For full disclosure, this case really really really bothers me a whole lot.

My son is seventeen.

 

[Dancing David]

http://gma.yahoo.com/trayvon-martin...-teen-death-recounts-063243901--abc-news.html

Well now we know why Martin was walking slowly, he was on the phone with a girl, likely having a conversation he did not want to share with his family.

In the final moments of his life, Trayvon Martin was being hounded by a strange man on a cellphone who ran after him, cornered him and confronted him, according to the teenage girl whose call logs show she was on the phone with the 17-year-old boy in the moments before neighborhood watch volunteer George Zimmerman shot him dead.

 

[WildCat]

I'm listening to an attorney discussion the FBI involvement. SYG has no bearing on a hate crime. If they can demonstrate that the killing was motivated by racial animus then they can try him for that.

That's a very hard charge to prove without more evidence than what is apparent now.

I wonder if the focus of the FBI/Justice investigation will be the Sanford PD?

 

[sgtbaker]

That's a very hard charge to prove without more evidence than what is apparent now.

I wonder if the focus of the FBI/Justice investigation will be the Sanford PD?

Is it just Hollywood or is there really technology with voice recognition capabilitites? I doubt local law enforcement would have something like that but if it exists, wouldn't the federal govt have access to it. I was thinking about that yesterday. If they were able to prove beyond a reasonable doubt, that it was Martin screaming for help and not Zimmerman, the prosecution just might be able to start building a case.

 

[WildCat]

A prosecutor who goes to trial with a relatively weak case might have to drop other cases with stronger evidence to do so. Prosecutors have reason not to gamble (although sometimes they do).

And when you go to trial with a weak case and the suspect gets acquitted you don't get to try him again later if much stronger evidence becomes available.

 

[WildCat]

Is it just Hollywood or is there really technology with voice recognition capabilitites? I doubt local law enforcement would have something like that but if it exists, wouldn't the federal govt have access to it. I was thinking about that yesterday. If they were able to prove beyond a reasonable doubt, that it was Martin screaming for help and not Zimmerman, the prosecution just might be able to start building a case.

I think there is such technology (isn't this how they verified OBL audio recordings?), but this recording is very poor. Through walls and picked up by a telephone mic, then recorded with a low bitrate recorder.

 

[3point14]

I have learned two things from this thread.

1. Don't knock on a door late at night in Florida. Apparelntly you can be shot with no consequenses for the shooter.

2. In florida, if you don't like someone, all you have to do is get them on their own with no witnesses about, shoot them, then claim self defence.

I am not going to Florida.

 

[Dancing David]

Is it just Hollywood or is there really technology with voice recognition capabilitites? I doubt local law enforcement would have something like that but if it exists, wouldn't the federal govt have access to it. I was thinking about that yesterday. If they were able to prove beyond a reasonable doubt, that it was Martin screaming for help and not Zimmerman, the prosecution just might be able to start building a case.

As Wildcat pointed out earlier, the voice recording is sort of the one you get through considerable filtering. The phone making the call, it compresses and removes much of the signal, the data storage does the same. So the actual recording is only a filtered sample of the actual noises being made, this lowers the number of data points for such a comparison.

 

[000063]

I read the NPR online report twice and listened to the broadcast report twice. If there's any jumping to conclusions or complaining about white people in America, I must be missing it.

Such as the very first sentence of this article?
http://www.npr.org/blogs/thetwo-way...tin-becomes-national-story-about-race?ps=cprs

Now that 911 recordings show how a white Florida man continued to follow a 17-year-old black boy even after police advised him not to...

I also pointed out that NPR weren't the only ones complaining.

http://coffeewithants.tumblr.com/post/19623683765
"This was just some angry, racist white person acting on his own **********-up motivations."
http://sosentient.tumblr.com/post/19622779684
http://stealurheartxox.tumblr.com/post/19620625092/white-people-you-will-never-look-suspicious-like
"White People, You Will Never Look Suspicious Like Trayvon Martin "
http://dagseoul.tumblr.com/post/19617913137/you-know-ideological-concerns-trump-real-conditions-of
"You know ideological concerns trump real conditions of existence when a black kid is killed and white people (and their allies) want to argue about poorly written laws and the right to bear arms."

I like the passive aggressive "and their allies" in there. With the implication that those allies are race traitors, or people who could not honestly want to discuss the matter.

http://anarchisttiger.tumblr.com/post/19613710840
"Another nameless black man ruthlessly murdered by the system of white supremacy."
http://crepusculars.tumblr.com/post/19612040822/what-ive-learned-from-kony-2012-and-trayvon-martin
"white america only gives a **** about people of color if they’re safely off in some far-away country. preferably a third world one."
http://globalgrind.com/news/michael...immerman-race-sanford-florida-photos-pictures

For the record, I think Zimmerman was a nut.

 

[WildCat]

I have learned two things from this thread.

1. Don't knock on a door late at night in Florida. Apparelntly you can be shot with no consequenses for the shooter.

2. In florida, if you don't like someone, all you have to do is get them on their own with no witnesses about, shoot them, then claim self defence.

I am not going to Florida.

I'll be going to Florida next month, I'm pretty sure I have less chance of getting shot there than here in Chicago despite having the most restrictive gun laws in the country. We had over 40 people shot last weekend, as I write this a cop is fighting for his life after a bullet fired by a curfew violation suspect found its way around his bullet-proof vest last night.

The unseasonably hot weather is really bringing the gangbangers out, going to be a long summer.

eta: 49 shot here last weekend. What happened in Florida is news because it's so rare, you have to keep things in the proper perspective.

 

[000063]

crimresearch: It looks like you are trying to be reasonable, yet still excuse a murder. Do you think it would be ok for a person to hunt down an enemy with a rifle, slowly stalking them, and only shooting when the victim picked up a fence post, axe, pistol, whatever? It almost seems that way from the above. As if it does not matter what the aggressor did, just as long as he felt threatened in the last moment before killing the defender. That is not a high bar to cross.

So maybe it is ok for an adult to stalk a minor using an SUV and get out to confront the minor? If the minor responds negatively, surely he is a dangerous threat and should be shot?

Perhaps you don't get it: killing someone is irreversible.
I've carried concealed. Every time my concern was staying out of any situation in which I felt the need to draw the weapon. That's probably the best reason to carry, staying aware of the situation and getting out immediately if it seem sketchy. The shooter in this case did not do that. Who knows about his particular thoughts, but the situation looks like he decided that his pistol let him do what he wanted until the situation got to scary for him.

I like how you ignore Crim explicitly saying the guy could be guilty and lying.

I mean, I've disagreed with Crim before, vehemently, but you're still strawmanning.

 

[Cleon]

I think there is such technology (isn't this how they verified OBL audio recordings?), but this recording is very poor. Through walls and picked up by a telephone mic, then recorded with a low bitrate recorder.

Based on what I've learned from TV crime shows, all they need to do is run it through a computer (any will do), say they're going to "enhance the audio," tap on some random keys, and it will be perfectly clear and crisp.

 

[sgtbaker]

http://articles.orlandosentinel.com...ls-20120320_1_shooting-death-moments-abc-news

Apparently, Martin was on the phone with his girlfriend just before the altercation.

She told attorneys she then heard the 17-year-old ask "What are you following me for?"

Then a man, presumably George Zimmerman, replied: "What are you doing around here?"

That doesn't exactly paint the picture of Martin blitzing Zimmerman.
Still doesn't help much but it appears that Martin initiated conversation between the two.

 

[Mumbles]

Such as the very first sentence of this article?
http://www.npr.org/blogs/thetwo-way...tin-becomes-national-story-about-race?ps=cprs



I also pointed out that NPR weren't the only ones complaining.

http://coffeewithants.tumblr.com/post/19623683765
"This was just some angry, racist white person acting on his own **********-up motivations."
http://sosentient.tumblr.com/post/19622779684
http://stealurheartxox.tumblr.com/post/19620625092/white-people-you-will-never-look-suspicious-like
"White People, You Will Never Look Suspicious Like Trayvon Martin "
http://dagseoul.tumblr.com/post/19617913137/you-know-ideological-concerns-trump-real-conditions-of
"You know ideological concerns trump real conditions of existence when a black kid is killed and white people (and their allies) want to argue about poorly written laws and the right to bear arms."

I like the passive aggressive "and their allies" in there. With the implication that those allies are race traitors, or people who could not honestly want to discuss the matter.

http://anarchisttiger.tumblr.com/post/19613710840
"Another nameless black man ruthlessly murdered by the system of white supremacy."
http://crepusculars.tumblr.com/post/19612040822/what-ive-learned-from-kony-2012-and-trayvon-martin
"white america only gives a **** about people of color if they’re safely off in some far-away country. preferably a third world one."
http://globalgrind.com/news/michael...immerman-race-sanford-florida-photos-pictures

For the record, I think Zimmerman was a nut.

As I said, the fact that large numbers of black people, and their allies are complaining that this sort of thing goes on all the time, is proof that black people love to play "the race card", and certainly not evidence that perhaps the US long and well-known habit of persecuted black people hasn't quite ended yet.

 

[3point14]

I'll be going to Florida next month, I'm pretty sure I have less chance of getting shot there than here in Chicago despite having the most restrictive gun laws in the country. We had over 40 people shot last weekend, as I write this a cop is fighting for his life after a bullet fired by a curfew violation suspect found its way around his bullet-proof vest last night.

The unseasonably hot weather is really bringing the gangbangers out, going to be a long summer.

eta: 49 shot here last weekend. What happened in Florida is news because it's so rare, you have to keep things in the proper perspective.

Appreciated. I think you guys just have far too many bullets over there. Rampant bullet production needs to be curbed.

My point is that the law in Florida seems to make it remarkably easy to get away with murder, provided you have a CCP and you're smart enough.

That really, really scares me.