So Will 2012 Be Just Another Year?

UndercoverElephant: How can you be so certain about your belief system? You remind me of the singularity cultists who believe in the imminent coming of the singularity. Imagine a few decades passing, and nothing like what you believe come to pass, and yet you invest so much time, energy and emotion (and money?) in those beliefs. Isn't the risk very big that you will be disappointed? And isn't the risk very big that your scenario fails to materialize?
 
I have already bet on it. Have a look at my posts on the monetary system and precious metals.

May I be indelicate and ask how much money you have riding on it? If I want advice on precious metals then I will consult my friend Arno, who is a goldsmith.

ps. I read through the thread and all I found from you about the monetary system was vague waffle. Where did you study economics?
 
Last edited:
Most people still don't understand that banks are allowed to invent money out of nowhere and then lend it to people and claim interest on it. They think that banks lend out money that other people have saved. Or at least they did until very recently.

I'm not under-estimating people. It's not really their fault if things have been deliberately concealed from them.

I opnly talk for Sweden here, but I strongly suspect it applies to other Western countries too. In Sweden, the Central Bank follows a 2% inflation policy and the amount of money is tailored to achieve that. The regular banks don't do that.

And if you don't like a monetary system, what's the option then? Barter?
 
UndercoverElephant: How can you be so certain about your belief system?

That depends what part of it you are talking about. I'm not certain about everything I believe, and there are different reasons why I certain about the things I'm certain about. Most of what I've been talking about in this thread is based on science, with a bit of politics and history mixed in.

The best answer is probably that if you look at the whole set of problems we're facing as a whole system, then it becomes clear that we are facing a systemic failure.

You remind me of the singularity cultists who believe in the imminent coming of the singularity. Imagine a few decades passing, and nothing like what you believe come to pass, and yet you invest so much time, energy and emotion (and money?) in those beliefs.

I can't imagine that, because it involves us breaking the laws of physics. The existing global economic/monetary/political system is unsustainable because it fails to account for the physical limitations of living on a finite planet. There's only one way that situation can end, and that is with the collapse of that system and the arrival of a new one (or a descent into total anarchy.)

Isn't the risk very big that you will be disappointed? And isn't the risk very big that your scenario fails to materialize?

Sadly, no. I do not know what the outcome is going to be, but I do know that we are hurtling towards a systemic crisis. I am also very much aware that a rapidly increasing number of other people are figuring out what is going on. I've been warning people about this for the last ten years. At first it felt like I was an isolated voice, and found it hard to convince many people of what I was telling them. Not so any longer. Now I can hardly keep up with the number of books and films that are trying to wake people up, and I find my discussions with people on the internet are more and more about how we should respond rather than whether or not the threat is real.
 
May I be indelicate and ask how much money you have riding on it?

There wouldn't be much point in me answering that question unless you knew how much money I don't have riding on it, and I'm not sure I want to be discussing that with total strangers on the internet.

If I want advice on precious metals then I will consult my friend Arno, who is a goldsmith.

ps. I read through the thread and all I found from you about the monetary system was vague waffle. Where did you study economics?

Thankfully, I've never studied economics. I have found economists to be some of the hardest people to explain this stuff to, because they are brainwashed by their professors into thinking inside certain boxes. A major part of the problem is that economists don't see the economy as being embedded in the ecosystem. As a result, most of their theories are useless.

I studied philosophy at Sussex University.
 
Last edited:
That depends what part of it you are talking about. I'm not certain about everything I believe, and there are different reasons why I certain about the things I'm certain about. Most of what I've been talking about in this thread is based on science, with a bit of politics and history mixed in.

The best answer is probably that if you look at the whole set of problems we're facing as a whole system, then it becomes clear that we are facing a systemic failure.



I can't imagine that, because it involves us breaking the laws of physics. The existing global economic/monetary/political system is unsustainable because it fails to account for the physical limitations of living on a finite planet. There's only one way that situation can end, and that is with the collapse of that system and the arrival of a new one (or a descent into total anarchy.)



Sadly, no. I do not know what the outcome is going to be, but I do know that we are hurtling towards a systemic crisis. I am also very much aware that a rapidly increasing number of other people are figuring out what is going on. I've been warning people about this for the last ten years. At first it felt like I was an isolated voice, and found it hard to convince many people of what I was telling them. Not so any longer. Now I can hardly keep up with the number of books and films that are trying to wake people up, and I find my discussions with people on the internet are more and more about how we should respond rather than whether or not the threat is real.

Show us some of this science.
 
There wouldn't be much point in me answering that question unless you knew how much money I don't have riding on it, and I'm not sure I want to be discussing that with total strangers on the internet.



Thankfully, I've never studied economics. I have found economists to be some of the hardest people to explain this stuff to, because they are brainwashed by their professors into thinking inside certain boxes. A major part of the problem is that economists don't see the economy as being embedded in the ecosystem. As a result, most of their theories are useless.

I studied philosophy at Sussex University.

So you don't know much about the subject. Are you betting that the collapse will happen?
 
So you don't know much about the subject.

That is an attempted reverse argument from authority: "you didn't study economics at university, therefore your opinion is worthless because you don't know much about the subject."

It is also a non-sequitor. I didn't study mycology at university either, but I doubt there's more than a few hundred people in the UK who know more than I do about British fungi.

Are you betting that the collapse will happen?

I have taken precautions to insure myself from a total monetary collapse.
 
Last edited:
Many skeptics will remain skeptical, the mystics will say the prophecies have been fulfilled, but all of them together will have to find ways to cope with the real-world situation they find themselves in.


You mean, kind of like the same thing that happens every year, or every time there's some vague mystical prophecy of mass enlightenment or spiritual growth or something equally undetectable?

Yes, I know, you're not interested in debating the "mystical prophecy" element. The problem is, once you get rid of that, all you have left is the fact that lots of things in the world are changing rapidly and society will have to figure out how to deal with them -- to which the proper response is, "Duh." So you've taken one claim that is, at best, entirely subjective and unfalsifiable, and another that's so obvious as to be banal, and you're trying to put them together and get something special out of them.
 
You mean, kind of like the same thing that happens every year, or every time there's some vague mystical prophecy of mass enlightenment or spiritual growth or something equally undetectable?

No.

Yes, I know, you're not interested in debating the "mystical prophecy" element. The problem is, once you get rid of that, all you have left is the fact that lots of things in the world are changing rapidly and society will have to figure out how to deal with them -- to which the proper response is, "Duh." So you've taken one claim that is, at best, entirely subjective and unfalsifiable, and another that's so obvious as to be banal, and you're trying to put them together and get something special out of them.

I'm not sure what you are talking about. I am sure that the world is currently changing much faster than it has been at any time since the end of WWII, and that much more is to come. You may not believe this yet.
 


Then would you care to outline the distinction? Because I can't see any difference between the situation you described earlier ("Many skeptics will remain skeptical, the mystics will say the prophecies have been fulfilled, but all of them together will have to find ways to cope with the real-world situation they find themselves in") and any other predicted "mystical awakening" that has come and gone with no discernible effect on anyone except those who were already predisposed to believe it.

I'm not sure what you are talking about. I am sure that the world is currently changing much faster than it has been at any time since the end of WWII, and that much more is to come. You may not believe this yet.


I suspect that that probably is true (depending on how you define "the world" and "changing," but let's just say it's true). What I'm saying is that it's not particularly remarkable, and that it was also true of 2011, and will very probably continue to be true of 2013. The only people who will see 2012 as being somehow unique in this regard are those who really want it to be, based on a cultural meme spawned by someone's misinterpretation of an old calendar (and/or something they posted on an internet forum 10 years ago).
 
snip
I don't believe that what I'm predicting will lead to a load of skeptics suddenly changing their minds about the 2012 prophecies. That's not what this is about. Not for me, anyway. The actual changes taking place are much more important than whether or not individual people believe there is anything "spiritual" going on. That's just a matter of personal interpretation.

So what are you predicting?
 
Then would you care to outline the distinction? Because I can't see any difference between the situation you described earlier ("Many skeptics will remain skeptical, the mystics will say the prophecies have been fulfilled, but all of them together will have to find ways to cope with the real-world situation they find themselves in") and any other predicted "mystical awakening" that has come and gone with no discernible effect on anyone except those who were already predisposed to believe it.

By answering this question I would be acknowledging that somehow whether or not the prophecies are relevant (or whether there is a spiritual component to what is happening) is more important than the events themselves. I have to repeat that this is not what matters. I don't care, and I don't care if you care either. You seem to be more concerned about who is right or wrong about mysticism than you are about whether or not we are heading towards what will be a major turning point in human history for everybody, regardless of their beliefs about spiritual matters.

I realise that is, to a certain extent, what this board is for. However, it is not why I started posting on this board over a decade ago, and it's not why I'm posting in this thread now. That's an argument about ego (wanting to prove you are right, or that the other person is wrong), or about believing that spirituality is somehow fundamentally a bad thing and that this matters more than the current state of civilisation on this planet. Getting rid of religion is not going to solve these problems, although some sort of religious changes might take place as part of it (I'm thinking of the Arab spring and the potential for Islam to finally update itself, maybe.)

I suspect that that probably is true (depending on how you define "the world" and "changing," but let's just say it's true). What I'm saying is that it's not particularly remarkable, and that it was also true of 2011, and will very probably continue to be true of 2013. The only people who will see 2012 as being somehow unique in this regard are those who really want it to be, based on a cultural meme spawned by someone's misinterpretation of an old calendar (and/or something they posted on an internet forum 10 years ago).

Well, we will need to wait until 2012 is over before that judgement can be made. Right now it is clear we are heading towards a peak in the global crisis - a moment when the system breaks. I don't know whether it will happen this year or not. I don't know how long the existing powers can go on avoiding the day of reckoning for the $US. At some point the bond markets are going to get out of control and the price of precious metals is going to go through the roof. Perhaps the prophecies will turn out to be wrong. Perhaps this moment of "peak crisis" will happen in 2013 or 2014. I don't know.
 
Last edited:
So what are you predicting?

I'm predicting that the process we're already witnessing are going to accelerate and reach a crisis point where the economic system breaks, and I'm predicting that as it falls apart, ordinary people are going to find out even more of the "dirty secrets" about the way the world has been run for the last few decades in the interests of a tiny minority and the expense of the majority.

It ends with a massive global currency crisis, followed by the creation of some new sort of system of global economics. I'm predicting the end of the dominance of what Nafeez Ahmed calls "neo-liberal capitalism". Francis Fukushima is going to turn out to have been very wrong.
 
And why do you predict it? What good reasons do we have to accept those predictions?

I'm predicting it because I have spent a very long time closely following what is going on in the world, and I think that if you look at the whole system as a whole system it is quite clear that that system is broken.

Ultimately the problem boils down to this: our existing economic system can only be sustained if infinite economic growth is possible, but we live within a finite physical system. Sooner or later that ends in a crash. The only question is when, and my answer is probably this year, and definitely no later than 2015.

It may be better to transfer this discussion to the following thread, which is about a documentary which explains all this in detail:

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=232272
 
I'm predicting it because I have spent a very long time closely following what is going on in the world, and I think that if you look at the whole system as a whole system it is quite clear that that system is broken.

Ultimately the problem boils down to this: our existing economic system can only be sustained if infinite economic growth is possible, but we live within a finite physical system. Sooner or later that ends in a crash.

But how can you be so certain about economics? You said earlier that you reject the field that studies it.

The only question is when, and my answer is probably this year, and definitely no later than 2015.

So civilization will collapse 2015 the latest? Do you realize how silly this will look in three years? And how much you will regret putting so much in to ill-supported conspiracy/doomsday beliefs?

Others think the recovery may be here.

It may be better to transfer this discussion to the following thread, which is about a documentary which explains all this in detail:

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=232272

Maybe.
 
An interesting question, but not one I'm inclined to answer on this particular board. I'm not expecting Jesus to return, if that's what you're hinting at.

I think some people, mainly those who are already "spiritually inclined" will experience these changes as primarily spiritual. Most of the people who post on this board will focus on the social, political and economic aspects.

So the spiritual changes will all be in the mind.

And the rest of the changes will be the usual changes any year undergoes.
 
You know, our pachiderm friend does illustrate though why such doomsday prophecies are so successful at fooling people, in spite of failing to actually deliver every single time for as long as we have a written history.

Basically I don't know what's WRONG with some people, but there seems to be this willingness -- nay, NEED -- to believe that their problems are the worst anyone ever faced. And that verily the times they live in must be the last days of civilization (or even the world), because surely these are the worst times and problems EVER, and surely it's SO bad that I don't get a lollipop that nature/economics/God/whatever can't allow such a wicked world to continue any more.

The quote that comes to mind is, "Tragedy is when I cut my finger. Comedy is when you fall into an open sewer and die" by Mel Brooks. And while most people will recognize the sarcasm when put like that, a lot then proceed to argue the same. Their problems are the worst the world has ever seen, while people in other times (e.g., during the middle ages, renaissance, whatever) or places (e.g., Tibet, India, whatever place they take as uber-enlightened) are so much happier. Why they practically never had any problems, if they don't have MY problems.

Basically the impression I'm invariably left with is, "look at me, I'm so unhappy because I read in the newspaper about a war and only got a raise on par with the inflation, surely these are worse and more trying times than when late medieval Spain went through an economic collapse, a century of continuous warfare, and lost a huge chunk of its population to bubonic plague, all at the same time. Why, those people only died of bubonic plague, screaming in agony, which is totally better than poor me having to pay back the mortgage!" Not an exact quote from anyone, but that seems to be the underlying stupidity.

And basically that kind of person is an easy mark if you want to sell a doomsday.

And there is an additional nearsightedness which lies behind such scenarios that can be summarized as "but <insert economic/industrial/etc thing> can't keep increasing any longer! Doom, gloom, collapse, bla, bla, bla." Well, so what? We've been there before, you know?

1. Technology moves on.

Once we needed wood to make steel (via charcoal), and sure enough at one point it looked like soon enough we'll run out of wood to make both that and ships. And, what do you know? In some places, e.g., England, they were even right. So what? Then we started using coal.

Once we used whale oil for lighting, and it sure looked like all the newfangled trend of literacy and having lamps to read by is an unsustainable trend. We'll run out of whale oil soon! Doom, gloom, bla, bla, bla. So what? We discovered that we can use different stuff for lighting.

Etc.

There is an inherent stupidity in any doomsday scenario whose implicit (and sometimes even explicit) assumption is that the current way of doing X is the only way people could EVER do X, and that society will crash and burn before it learns to do X differently.

2. Usually the solution actually already exists, it's just not economical to do it right now. The same applies to most of the current economic/energy/etc doomsday scenarios.

3. Nothing is for ever, and, again, knoweldge evolves, hence nothing has to be the perfect final solution. Humanity has been living on temporary solutions from day one.

Gathering berries was something that was worse than agriculture, but served to keep us going before we invented agriculture. Copying books by hand was worse than the printing press, but it served us well before we had a printing press. Etc.

The world isn't going to end because some current solution isn't perfect, any more than it ended 2000 years ago because their current solutions weren't perfect.

4. Not only that, but the more advanced solutions build on the less advanced ones, hence, we'd still be running naked through the jungle and sleeping in caves, if we didn't put up with imperfect and occasionally unsustainable partial solutions.

Before we could have a sailing boat, we had to have a raft. Before we had a bow and arrow, we had to have a dart. Before we had a writing system, we had to have inventory tags. And speaking of the economy, before having gold coins, we had to have barter. Etc.

A lot of those systems, yes, even in economics, were flawed, imperfect, and unsustainable in the long run. E.g., the Chinese idea to just use quantities of bronze as a common currency, and just let everyone "mint" their own bars of standard value if they have the bronze, worked well early in the bronze age when metal was scarce and quantities in circulation were modest, but fast forward a thousand years and there are millions of tons of bronze and often the "coins" to buy something are heavier than anything you can buy with them.

But we need such intermediate imperfect solutions before we can build better ones based on that experience.

5. People adapt.

We've had shortages before. Prices just went up and people learned to live with less of whatever there was a shortage of. I don't know what makes people think that if some problems (energy, economic, etc) crop up ahead, everyone would just ignore them and everything would continue on the road to destruction. It never worked that way before, and arguably it can't.

In fact, every example given for supposed societies which did continue, are manufactured BS. E.g., no, Easter Island inhabitants DIND'T continue just chopping trees until they collapsed for it, they were actually the victims of a combination of climate change (hence the later lack of trees), disease and some devastating raids by other people coming over the sea.
 

Back
Top Bottom