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Miracle of the Shroud / Blood on the shroud

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- All I was trying to imply was that C14 data didn’t show the Shroud is a fake – it appeared to show that the Shroud is a fake. Many scientists, and investigators otherwise, have since claimed that the dating, itself, was invalid… For instance, see http://www.factsplusfacts.com/. At this point, we all need to carefully weigh both sides. That's what I'm hoping to do with our debate.
Untrue. There is absolutely no reason to think that there is any issue with the 14C dating of the cloth despite the attempts of believers to try and create doubt. The "patch" and "contamination" theories are demonstrated nonsense.
Of course the 14C doesn't stand alone is showing the shroud as a medieval fake, there's also the:

  • lack of historical background before the mid fourteenth century
  • the (alleged) confession of the forger
  • the textile analysis
  • the artistic similarities with other religious art of the period
  • the contemporary descriptions of the shroud as a fake
all of which has been pointed out to you before and all of which points to a similar origin.
 
- Here are a couple of pro authenticity writings that I think should be considered when evaluating the validity of the carbon dating.

http://www.skepticalspectacle.com/Joe-Nickell/index.htm
http://www.skepticalspectacle.com/Joe-Nickell/rogers.htm
Irrelevant propaganda from believers and excellent examples of the inverted Argument from Authority and Well Poisoning logical fallacies as well as plenth of Ad Hominem attacks; there is nothing there to support any claims of problems with the radiocarbon dating of the shroud.
No science there.

Is this really the best you can come up with?
 
IanS,
- I didn’t mean to imply what you said I implied.
- All I was trying to imply was that C14 data didn’t show the Shroud is a fake – it appeared to show that the Shroud is a fake. Many scientists, and investigators otherwise, have since claimed that the dating, itself, was invalid… For instance, see http://www.factsplusfacts.com/. At this point, we all need to carefully weigh both sides. That's what I'm hoping to do with our debate.
What do you mean, debate? I'm happy with the carbon 14 test. If for some reason you're not, a debate is of no value. What you need to do is demand another test. Are you doing this or simply creating bizarre conditions of inextricable complexity within which to hold a debate? Get another test made. Until that's done, matters remain where they currently stand. It's a 14th century fake. Ample other evidence supports that view.

Please refer me to a report of any activities you have engaged in to secure another carbon dating.
 
Carlitos,
- For me, that first link (http://www.skepticalspectacle.com/Joe-Nickell/index.htm) goes to a pro-authenticity article talking about Joe Nickell...
...which ends with the text:
Everyone should read a recent Joe Nickell's article "Claims of Invalid “Shroud” Radiocarbon Date Cut from Whole Cloth" and the criticisms of this article that follow. Everyone should judge for himself or herself.

...which links to here, which links to:

Page not found!

We've recently redesigned, but hopefully you can find what you're looking for with our site search (at left).

All of the links to the article on all the sub-pages go to that dead link.

And, for what it's worth, that web page could use a general redesign. And, if I were the owner, I'd get rid of the footer text, which makes it look like the website is endorsed by the Skeptical Enquirer.
© Copyright 2005, Daniel Porter (a Skeptical Inquirer), Bronxville, New York
Not cool.
 
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It might have been said already but ...

We did a "shroud" experiment in the office one day, where we wrapped a sheet of A3 round someone's head and pencilled in the major features plus chin, hairline etc.

Spread out flat it was comical, with the ears way out there looking ridiculous and the whole thing didn't resemble the shroud-thingy whatsoever. The whole business is too ridiculous to contemplate, for me, but if this shroud registered the impression of a face, why aren't the ear areas way out there?

p.s. you can try this at home, just don't poke anybody's eyes out with a pencil.

That's already been answered in this thread. Jesus was levitating inside a black hole.

No, seriously, that's the explanation given.
 
All of the links to the article on all the sub-pages go to that dead link.

And, for what it's worth, that web page could use a general redesign. And, if I were the owner, I'd get rid of the footer text, which makes it look like the website is endorsed by the Skeptical Enquirer. Not cool.
Carlitos,
- I'm not sure which web page you're referring to above.
 
That's already been answered in this thread. Jesus was levitating inside a black hole.

No, seriously, that's the explanation given.

That's not the explanation given by Jabba, it's just the explanation given in this pro-authenticity video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oRmCaindCpg at about 1:10.

It's pretty funny, but not the explanation given by Jabba, in fact Jabba has offered no explanation for the non-distorted image.

Is this the correct explanation, Jabba?

Ward
 
Gambling Cruiser,
- But, the C14 dating could be wrong.



Jabba,


You are right it could be wrong.......even if it is wrong..... what does that mean?

Let's for the sake of argument admit to you that IT IS wrong.

What does that then mean?

All it means is that WE DO NOT KNOW what date the shroud has been created in.

Does it then mean it is 1AD or 33 AD or whatever??????

No it does not mean ANYTHING...... all it means is that we do not know.

So why would it be if we do not know that you are more BIASED towards accepting that it is 33AD and not 2000 BCE or 1200 AD????

And if Christians are GENUINELY concerned about this and GENUINELY need to prove to everyone on earth that Jesus rose from the dead and here is the shroud as proof then WHY....WHY are they not DEMANDING and CRYING OUT LOUD for the shroud to be incontrovertibly tested to finally SETTLE this doubt?

Why don't all Christians and the Vatican submit the sample that they think would pass the test and do it under FULL DISCLOSURE and scrutiny and in all honesty?

Why not settle this finally for posterity and for the sake of the Christian religion.

If the Vatican and the Christians are SURE and have no doubt at all, then what do they have to fear from retesting the shroud? Why are they stalling?

Can you recognize a HOAX when you see it? I do not mean that you have 100% proof that it is a hoax.... I mean that you see all the indications of disingenuousness and fakery and obfuscation and vagueness and contrived excuses and hand waiving and appeal to special circumstances and not submitting to genuine enquiry etc. etc.

Well.... in this case that is exactly what is going on..... IT IS A HOAX but you cannot recognize it because you are blinded.

If you were genuinely enquiring you would not say something is X when so far the only test to prove that it is has failed..... if you are a RATIONAL THINKER you would not accept X as that unless it is proven to be that...... you do not assume it is X despite no proof whatsoever and on the contrary there is proof that it is not. Regardless of the doubt about the validity of the proof you should at the very least doubt and not accept until you have another DEFINITE proof one way or the other.

Why don't you apply the same CRITICAL SKEPTICISM to the shroud itself that you seem to be applying to the 14C dating. Why don't you doubt the shroud as much as you doubt the dating?

The only reason you would do that is CONFIRMATION BIAS and WISHFUL THINKING and geographical brain washing.
 
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That's not the explanation given by Jabba, it's just the explanation given in this pro-authenticity video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oRmCaindCpg at about 1:10.

It's pretty funny, but not the explanation given by Jabba, in fact Jabba has offered no explanation for the non-distorted image.

Is this the correct explanation, Jabba?

Ward

So the lady says that her 3D modeling of the images shows that the person she claims was in the shroud and the shroud itself was hovering when the image was made due to a black hole?

After doing the 3D imaging and concluding that if this was a burial shroud then the person and the shroud were in zero gravity I would conclude the image was not an imprint of a human but rather a painting or stylized image of a person created through some other means than burial.
 
So the lady says that her 3D modeling of the images shows that the person she claims was in the shroud and the shroud itself was hovering when the image was made due to a black hole?

After doing the 3D imaging and concluding that if this was a burial shroud then the person and the shroud were in zero gravity I would conclude the image was not an imprint of a human but rather a painting or stylized image of a person created through some other means than burial.

The reason your explanation isn't as good as theirs is that it doesn't include floating or a black hole.
 
p.s. you can try this at home, just don't poke anybody's eyes out with a pencil.

As my sainted mother used to say: debunking the Shroud of Turin is all fun and games until someone loses and eye.
 
Jabba... I have a lot of patience (not to mention nifty tools that remind me if I have not received an answer on various fora for a while)... so please do take your time but do not think that I have forgotten our Q&A.

The reason I am tenacious about it is because the whole forensics thing is applicable to most religious artefacts.

A lot of them are 'taken for granted' as being 'the thing' because they were introduced and 'ratified' way before methodological/forensical thinking was in place.

So, please do research the answers.
 
Jabba... I have a lot of patience (not to mention nifty tools that remind me if I have not received an answer on various fora for a while)... so please do take your time but do not think that I have forgotten our Q&A.

The reason I am tenacious about it is because the whole forensics thing is applicable to most religious artefacts.

A lot of them are 'taken for granted' as being 'the thing' because they were introduced and 'ratified' way before methodological/forensical thinking was in place.

So, please do research the answers.

This reminds me of a sceptical programme that aired a year or two ago in which Tony Robinson was the credulous guy and some scientist was his Scully. They tested a different woo each of the three weeks, although it was often clear that they were going through the motions and they often withheld really obvious stuff until the end of the programme to artificially create a sense of mystery and give the programme a structure.

Anyway one week, I forget exactly what the main theme of the programme as a whole was, but one of the things they did was took some bones which were holy relics from a church in order to have them tested. They were supposed to be the bones of a saint. Turns out that some of them were pig, and some of them were something else that I forget now.
 
A few interesting tidbits;

The Mask_of_AgamemnonWP shows what would be realistically expected from a piece of flexible material formed to a face then flattened. In this case it's gold leaf with the details incised into it, but the distortion is what you'd actually see.

A dead body on an absorbent surface, especially in a hot climate, can indeed leave a stain on an absorbent surface. That stain doesn't look much like a person though, more like a blotchy outline of a person. A notable case is the case of Margaret Schilling, a mental patient who died on a concrete floor and was not found for weeks. A nice discussion of the chemistry involved in the stain is here: http://www.ohio.edu/people/jacksong/Research/Analysis%20of%20suspected%20trace%20human%20remains%20from%20an%20indoor%20concrete%20surface.pdf Oddly, it appears that attempts to etch the stain out of the cement only made it more visible, by locally lightening the concrete, giving a photo-negative effect. Note that the pictures of the stain don't look anything like the shroud, just a vaguely humanoid blotch. I guess Margaret Schilling wasn't hovering in a black hole...
 
...So in a nutshell, we have cutting and pasting from one or more websites, avoidance of legitimate questions, repeating of points already shown to be without merit, empty promises to provide evidence, multi day sabbaticals and obfuscation.
Am I the only one here to smell a troll? Jabba, are you DOC?

The cut and paste job does give the show away, doesn't it.
Still, Jabba=DOC?
Interesting, if so.
 
This reminds me of a sceptical programme that aired a year or two ago in which Tony Robinson was the credulous guy and some scientist was his Scully. They tested a different woo each of the three weeks, although it was often clear that they were going through the motions and they often withheld really obvious stuff until the end of the programme to artificially create a sense of mystery and give the programme a structure.

Anyway one week, I forget exactly what the main theme of the programme as a whole was, but one of the things they did was took some bones which were holy relics from a church in order to have them tested. They were supposed to be the bones of a saint. Turns out that some of them were pig, and some of them were something else that I forget now.

The problem with 'common sense' is that it is 'sense by consensus'.

Normally in forensics you do the 'common sense' thing first; i.e. breadth first; you get all obvious or findable 'starts' or 'leads'.

But here is where forensics often diverges from 'common sense', because most people will then happily talk the 'clues' together in a coherent story.
Or they will focus on the one single 'clue' that matches a prior fitting story.

In forensics you then go into the depth of each item and research it until it has told it's own story.

What you end up with is a lot of 'witness material' that each tells it's own story.

The final story is the one that encompasses all these small stories together and has the least contradictions.

The contradictions can occur because reality has a way of making things look to us as 'clues' or because errors have been made in acquiring the evidence.

Now, there are a lot of examples where it is not as straightforward as I am saying now, but this is the simplified basic methodology.

As for the shroud, that is why I want to follow the 'papertrail'. Because if the ownership can not be proven, then not even the carbon dating would matter (that could be because of errors, conspiracies etc.).

Basically, for the shroud to be anywhere near believable, it would have to hold in any conventional way of handling; procuring, using, storing, transferring to others, etc.

If the carbon dating would date it at 33AD (or it may have been produced earlier, and stored before selling, but not later...) we still have to determine that it was indeed a shroud (sweat, hair samples, skin flakes, dirt... all of these should be findable in one form or other, chemically or physically), then next we would have to determine that Joseph really was the one who brought it to Golgotha (or bought it there) and finally that it was the one that was used to wrap Jesus in.

We can go about that from the date of 'procurement' all the way to the present, saying 'X transferred to Y, then Y to Z' or we can go backwards from the present saying 'Z got it from Y who got it from X'.

But if there is a break in that chain, it has to be verified that the two items that were talked about in both chain segments are one and the same.
*That* is ridiculously hard to do.
 
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