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JFK Conspiracy Theories: It Never Ends

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Zapruder's testimony to the Warren Commission is here:
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/zapruder.htm

Zapruder testified to the Warren Commission, authenticating first where he was standing, on the concrete abutment in Dealey Plaza:

Mr. LIEBELER - I show you a picture that has been marked Hudson Exhibit No. 1 and ask you if you can in fact see yourself in that picture?
Mr. ZAPRUDER - Let me see--there it is here. That's me standing there--there's a girl--that's where I was standing.
Mr. LIEBELER - You are pointing out a concrete abutment that comes up immediately to the right of the sign that reads "Stemmons Freeway, Keep Right"?
Mr. ZAPRUDER - That's right. That's the girl behind me--that's my girl that works in my office. She was up there, too.


Here's Hudson Exhibit #1 http://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh20/html/WH_Vol20_0102a.htm

Zapruder can be seen in the image on the abutment above and to the right of the Stemmons freeway sign.

He was shown a book of frames from his film. He authenticated many of the individual frames taken from the film here:

Mr. LIEBELER - Now, specifically here let me show you the ones that have been numbered 185 and 186 and see if you can recognize those. This is 185 here that we are looking at now--of Commission Exhibit No. 885.
Mr. ZAPRUDER - Yes. This is where he came in from Houston Street and turned there.
Mr. LIEBELER - Yes; and they are going down Elm Street now?
Mr. ZAPRUDER - Yes; this is before--this shouldn't be there the--shot wasn't fired, was it? You can't tell from here?
Mr. LIEBELER - (no response).
Mr. ZAPRUDER - I believe it was closer down here where it happened. Of course, on the film they could see better but you take an 8 millimeter and you enlarge it in color or in black and white, you lose a lot of detail. I wish I had an enlarger here for you.
Mr. LIEBELER - In any event, frame No. 185 does look like it's one of the frames, sir?
Mr. ZAPRUDER - Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER - And 186 is similar also?
Mr. ZAPRUDER - Yes.


I am not going to quote it all, but he is shown and individually authenticates frames 207, 222, 225, 227, 228, 229, 230, 231, 235, 240, 249, 255, and 313.

Finally, he is asked if the film is as he took it. He responds yes.

Mr. LIEBELER - It appears to you then, that this book of pictures here as you look through it, are your pictures?
Mr. ZAPRUDER - Yes.


He was looking at photos from this exhibit: http://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh18/html/WH_Vol18_0008a.htm

Now, that alone is sufficient to get that film introduced into the record.

But there is more. Zapruder also authenticated the film when he testified at the conspiracy trial of Clay Shaw. You remember that trial? It was for the purpose of establishing that there was a conspiracy by Clay Shaw and others to assassinate President John Fitzgerald Kennedy. Zapruder's film was admitted into evidence in a real trial in 1969. It was shown in open court in 1969 and seen by those court witnesses in public session. Zapruder validated it then as well.

http://www.jfk-online.com/zaprudershaw2.html

THE COURT: ...Mr. Zapruder, when this equipment is properly rigged up and they play this film, don't say anything while they are playing the film. You will be asked questions after the film is played.
(WHEREUPON, the film was shown.)
THE COURT: Before we bring the Jury in, I think the State has to ask a question of this witness.
MR. DYMOND: There is one question I would like to ask also, Judge.
THE COURT: Let Mr. Oser ask his question first.
BY MR. OSER: Q: Mr. Zapruder, from having seen the film just projected on the screen, can you tell us whether or not this represents what you saw on November 22, 1963, after your original film was developed in Dallas, Texas?
A: I would say they do.
THE COURT: I didn't hear you again.
THE WITNESS: I would say that they do. Yes, they do.


You like to pretend the film wasn't seen until 1975. That is false. You like to pretend your supposed medical witnesses would be sufficient to get the film thrown out of court, but that is likewise a lie. It was admitted into evidence and shown several times at the trial of Clay Shaw.

You do have different standards for evidence against a conspiracy than for one. If the evidence indicates a conspiracy, like the statements of Ed Hoffman, you are all for them, even though Hoffman didn't come forward with any story until 1967, and in its first incarnation, spoke of seeing men leaving the TSBD. By the 1970's, he was speaking of seeing men on the knoll, but his story as published in his book is directly contradicted by the men who were known to be there on 11/22/63, like Sam Holland. You accepted Hoffman's statements as indicating conspiracy anyway.

Ditto with the March 3rd supposed "Oswald was CIA" memo you introduced here. You argued for its validity, and argued the May 8th "Oswald wasn't CIA" memo wasn't legit, because McCone in it was speaking for the FBI - enough, you said, to render it invalid, as McCone didn't have the authority to speak for the FBI. But it was actually the March 3 "Oswald was CIA" memo in which McCone spoke for the FBI, as I pointed out and you conceded when you admitted: "As to the May memo and the FBI. I'm afraid you are correct. For once." Now you've switched your tune back however, and McCone speaking for the FBI is apparently not enough to render it invalid. Instead, you claim the March 3 memo still "rings true" and "As far as you or I or anyone would know, that March memo may indeed be authentic. Certainly looks authentic." So even after you admitted you were wrong about the March 3 memo, you continue to post about the same evidence you previously conceded was false as if it were true.

If the evidence - like films and photos - disagree with your favorite conspiracy witnesses, then you discount that hard evidence entirely, and allege it is worthless. In your world, maybe it is. But in the real world, where the trial of Clay Shaw took place, it was admitted and viewed by the jury.

Let me reiterate the central point of this post in case you still don't understand it. Your claim that "... as for the Z film, the witnesses that observed the back of K's head blow out of brains, hair, scalp and blood, would negate that as well..." Well, as we've seen from the real life trial of Clay Shaw, no, it wouldn't. That is a lie. The Zapruder film was authenticated by Abraham Zapruder, accepted in the conspiracy trial of Clay Shaw, and shown in open court in 1969.

Your claims are false. The film is legit. All you've done is allege it isn't. You have not proven that, and your supposed '40 witnesses' don't prove that either.

And in fact, what you claim is necessary in court has in fact been done:




So the Zapruder film, since it was authenticated in open court by the man who filmed it, is, by your OWN ADMISSION, superior evidence to any eyewitness you intend to call to the stand. You wrote that was what was necessary to establish it as superior. That was done. In 1969. 43 years ago. Get up to speed here.

Go ahead, dismiss this all as baloney.

Hank

Of course it's baloney because an adverse witness could dispute the validty of the Z film. At the Shaw trial, the film was a witness for the prosecution, not the defense. The May memo is false for the reason stated. It makes no mention of LhO and the CIA's U2 project.
Nor is an altered home movie, that does not pass the chain of evidence muster, ever superior evidence to the consistent observations of 40 plus witneses.
 
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The title of the book is not evidence either, Robert. You do seem to have difficulty understanding what evidence is. Please present some evidence that Oswald had any connection with the CIA. Working with radar in the Marine Corps does not qualify.

Hank


Working with radar that includes the CIA U2 project does indeed qualify.

"As a radar operator he (LHO) also tracked this dark object with advanced height finding radar equipment... It was the u2."

Page 28, 'Oswald and the CIA."
 
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Lets start with the ones who saw oswald in the tsbd. Those who saw him shoot tippet. Those who recieved signed "fake" photos of him with the murder weapon. Those who witnessed the fingerprints being taken on the shells, rifle, etc...

Nobody saw him shoot Tippet and Tippet is off topic. Nobody knows who really signed the fake photos with the fake murder weapon and the fake LHO, and there were no fingerprints found on the shells nor the rifle. Get your facts straight.
 
Hank wrote:
"You do have different standards for evidence against a conspiracy than for one. If the evidence indicates a conspiracy, like the statements of Ed Hoffman, you are all for them, even though Hoffman didn't come forward with any story until 1967."

Comment:
According to Hoffman, he immediately tried to alert a policeman who paid him no attention and then did try to tell the FBI but they wouldn't listen and it was hard for him to communicate. Hoffman claims the FBI tried to offer him money to keep quiet. -- ( From "The Men Who Killed Kennedy," 2nd episode.)
 
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No, he's right. I once saw someone make a coin appear out of thin air no less than two feet away from me. I thought at the time that I had witnessed a genuine paranormal event, ergo it actually was a genuine paranormal event. Q.E.D.
 
Working with radar that includes the CIA U2 project does indeed qualify.

"As a radar operator he (LHO) also tracked this dark object with advanced height finding radar equipment... It was the u2."

Page 28, 'Oswald and the CIA."

He saw something on Radar belonging to the CIA, so that qualifies???

ETA: Johnson worked for Dr. Evil in Austin Powers!
 
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Hank wrote:
"You do have different standards for evidence against a conspiracy than for one. If the evidence indicates a conspiracy, like the statements of Ed Hoffman, you are all for them, even though Hoffman didn't come forward with any story until 1967."

Comment:
According to Hoffman, he immediately tried to alert a policeman who paid him no attention and then did try to tell the FBI but they wouldn't listen and it was hard for him to communicate. Hoffman claims the FBI tried to offer him money to keep quiet. -- ( From "The Men Who Killed Kennedy," 2nd episode.)


I know that's what Hoffman *said*, years later, to explain away why he took so long to come forward. Do you believe Hoffman's story? Why didn't Hoffman try again the next day? Why didn't he write a letter on 11/23/63? Fact is, the first time we have documentation he actually came forward was in 1967, and then his story is about seeing men leave the TSBD, nothing about the knoll.

When we discussed this extensively a few weeks ago, you appeared to be distancing yourself from Hoffman's story (saying you neither believe nor disbelieve him). See below links.

Now you appear to be believing him again (citing a story he didn't tell until the 1970's). Do you believe Hoffman's story?

You questioned who said it was a rifle, for instance, when confronted with the fact that a rifle would be difficult to hide (link below). It was Hoffman's story that the GK shooter had a rifle, remember. It was also Hoffman's story that the man who hid the rifle did so near the intersection of the Knoll fence and the overpass, which would have put in in clear view of the overpass witnesses like Sam Holland. Yet they saw nothing of the kind. You skirted right over that each time I brought it up. Hoffman and you have no explanation for any of the numerous problems with Hoffman's story - that again, only emerged in the 1970's and continued to get fleshed out with additions into the 1990's.

...Arguing about steam pipes, the number of cars, how the rifle disappeared (who says it was a rifle?) is irrelevant minutia in an attempt to refute the irrefutable.

NO. I never said I believed Hoffman. Nor that I dis-believe him ...
 
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Nobody saw him shoot Tippet and Tippet is off topic. Nobody knows who really signed the fake photos with the fake murder weapon and the fake LHO, and there were no fingerprints found on the shells nor the rifle. Get your facts straight.


There are witnesses who saw him shoot Tippit, Robert. That Oswald had the capability to take a human life is certainly on-topic.

The backyard photo was signed by Lee Harvey Oswald and provided to George DeMorhenschildt. There were fingerprints and palmprints - identified as Lee Harvey Oswald's - found on the rifle.

You need to get your facts straight.

Hank
 
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Of course it's baloney because an adverse witness could dispute the validty of the Z film. At the Shaw trial, the film was a witness for the prosecution, not the defense.


Doesn't matter who it was a witness for. The fact of the matter is you said it would take somebody vouching for the film to get it admitted into evidence, and that is exactly what happened in 1969. It was admitted into evidence and viewed by the jury. It is valid evidence you are trying to exclude simply because you don't like what it shows.

You think having an adverse witness dispute the validity of the z-film would get it excluded? No, it would simply expose the witness as someone with a poor memory or faulty powers of observation. The film takes precedence over any witnesses power of recall. We can see for ourselves what happens.


The May memo is false for the reason stated. It makes no mention of LhO and the CIA's U2 project.


No, you mentioned that the reason the memo was false was because it had McCone speaking for the FBI. But that is in the March memo you cited, not the May memo I cited. Your argument is also circular, you are simply using the premise (Oswald had CIA associations) to exclude the evidence to the contrary, and thereby "disprove" the memo, which states otherwise. You seem to not know what evidence is. It's not the premise. You need evidence to prove the premise. You don't use the premise to exclude the evidence you don't like, which is what you are doing above.


Nor is an altered home movie, that does not pass the chain of evidence muster, ever superior evidence to the consistent observations of 40 plus witneses.


I remind you it passed the chain of evidence mustard and was admitted into evidence in the 1969 trial of Clay Shaw. You need to ketchup here. It is superior evidence to any eyewitnesses you can provide. I should also point out that the film wasn't in Zapruder's sole possession between 1963 and 1969 and therefore your claims about chain of possession are exposed as nonsense. The film was nonetheless admitted into evidence and shown to the jury in 1969, once Zapruder testified it was the film he took of the assassination.
 
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To say that Sam Holland, Bill Newman and Abe Z stated that there was no damage to the back of the head is false and dishonest. They were in no position to view the back of the head. Others were, and did state the back of K's head -- brains, blood, hair, scalp, were blown out from the back of his head.


I never said that Holland said anything about the back of the head. Bringing Sam Holland into this is a straw argument on your part. What I said what that Holland and the other overpass witnesses dispute entirely Ed Hoffman's story. You cannot rebut that, so you merely change it to a straw argument you can rebut. Here's what I wrote. Ignore it some more:

Sam Holland and the seven men on the overpass dispute entirely the story as told by Ed Hoffman that you introduced here...


Abraham Zapruder and Bill Newman were both in excellent position to view the back of the head. The Z-film shows the back of the head and it shows no damage there after the head shot. And of course, since the camera was being held up to Zapruder's eye, the z-film shows what Zapruder saw. Since we can see the back of the head in the Z-film, it exposes your claim that Zapruder was in no position to view the back of the head as a lie. The limo went down Elm, and the head shot occurred when the limo was approximately perpendicular to Zapruder's position. It shows the head for a second or two beyond the head shot, including the 'back and to the left' scene which happens after the limo has passed Zapruder's position. He can see - and so can we - the back of the head throughout the scene.

Newman was standing in front of and to the left of Zapruder, (closer to the limo and a bit further behind the limo) at the time of the head shot, so of course he had an even better view of the damage to the head and of the back of the head. He described a large wound on the right side of JFK's head. Nothing about damage to the back of the head.

Keep up the nonsense. It shows you are so wedded to a conspiracy belief that you are incapable of letting go of those beliefs even in the face of a mountain of evidence to the contrary. You simply continue to spout the conspiracy line and ignore the evidence to the contrary.

Hank
 
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Nobody saw him shoot Tippet and Tippet is off topic. Nobody knows who really signed the fake photos with the fake murder weapon and the fake LHO, and there were no fingerprints found on the shells nor the rifle. Get your facts straight.

I have my facts straight.

Hell I have facts to be straight.

Nothing in your post is a fact.
 
I have my facts straight.

Hell I have facts to be straight.

Nothing in your post is a fact.

Baloney. All of it is fact. Also, the fact is I asked for witnesses who you claim do not agree with me, but we were discussing K's wounds. Instead, you duck the question and revert to different subjects: Tippet, and the non-witnesses who could not ID the killer and prints that were not found on the shells and the rifle.
 
Hank wrote:

"I never said that Holland said anything about the back of the head."

Comment:
Yes you did. You said they claimed there was no damage to the back of the head. In fact, they didn't address the back of the head.
 
Hank wrote:

"Abraham Zapruder and Bill Newman were both in excellent position to view the back of the head. The Z-film shows the back of the head and it shows no damage there after the head shot.,.."

Comment:
Neither Abe Z. nor Bill Newman described anything about the back of the head. Nonetheless, others did.
My original opinoin of the Z film was that it is irrelevant as to whether is was altered or not since the Best Evidence is the condition of the Head as viewed by the Medical personnel. I still believe that, with the additional view that the Z film was indeed altered, in several ways including what it does not show as to the back of the head and the spray of brains, hair, scalp and blood that blew out the back of K's head, as seen by witnesses, but not seen on the Z film. The Best Evidence is still what the Medical personnel observed, but nonetheless the Z film was indeed altered and falsified.
 
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Hank wrote:

"Keep up the nonsense. It shows you are so wedded to a conspiracy belief that you are incapable of letting go of those beliefs even in the face of a mountain of evidence to the contrary. You simply continue to spout the conspiracy line and ignore the evidence to the contrary."

Comment:
Right back at you. You are so wedded to the fairy tale provided by the very perps who were involved in the crime and the cover-up, that in the face of 50 plus witnesses at Parkland, Bethesda and Dealey plaza, you hopelessly cling to a forged, altered home movie as your only way of countering the mountain of evidence for conspiracy.
 
Hank wrote:

"Doesn't matter who it was a witness for. The fact of the matter is you said it would take somebody vouching for the film to get it admitted into evidence, and that is exactly what happened in 1969. It was admitted into evidence and viewed by the jury. It is valid evidence you are trying to exclude simply because you don't like what it shows."

Comment:
And nobody objected, but they could have, but the prosecution believed the movie was in their favor, showing a shot from the right front. And it does show a shot from the right front. The wounds were not in dispute by the defense. Fact is, your contention that an eye-witness as the worst evidence still required an eye-witness to get the movie admitted. You denigrate the 50 plus eye-witnesses I submit as evidence, but place complete faith in one eyewitness who happened to be the shooter of the home movie -- a man too far away to see what the close-up witnesses saw; namely, -- blood, brains, hair and scalp shooting out from the back of K's head.
 
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Hank wrote:

"no, you mentioned that the reason the memo was false was because it had McCone speaking for the FBI."

Comment: But I said it was also false for neglecting the fact the LHO was associated with the CIA U2 project.
 
There are witnesses who saw him shoot Tippit, Robert. That Oswald had the capability to take a human life is certainly on-topic.

The backyard photo was signed by Lee Harvey Oswald and provided to George DeMorhenschildt. There were fingerprints and palmprints - identified as Lee Harvey Oswald's - found on the rifle.

You need to get your facts straight.

Hank

Comment:
MOre baloney.EVerything you have posted has been thoroughly covered in previous posts and shown to be false. No Tippet Killer ID, No prints on rifle, no palm print except after one had been taken at the funeral home and backyard photos I have personally proved to be fake.
 
Neither Abe Z. nor Bill Newman described anything about the back of the head.

No. Because they clearly saw the exit wound to the TEMPLE that the witnesses you RELY on, to "prove" that the shot came from the grassy knoll.

Unlike your witnesses, Zapruder can support his statement WITH A FILM.

(This is how we know the witnesses you rely on are WRONG, and before you repeat your usual caveat that your theory does not exclude a shot from behind, I'm afraid your past statements do indeed exclude this. You have stated clearly there could not be a shot from behind because the doctors whose statements you build your entire case upon described different wounds, that you claimed must have meant a shot from the front. Unless you are claiming your own witnesses were incompetent enough to have missed the exit wound on the temple visible in the photographic record, the film record, and supported by eye witnesses, we have no choice to accept that your claims of the shot being from the front are plain wrong).
 
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