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JFK Conspiracy Theories: It Never Ends

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With this last post, you are lowering yourself down to the level of the children who sometimes post their nonsense on this baord. All your fake autopsy photos and reports have been thoroughly discredited as has your Jenkins ploy.

By "thoroughly" you seem to mean "not at all". All you have posted are CLAIMS that don't counter PHYSICAL evidence.

The person who post childish nonsense is the one who keeps repeating "baloney" or talking about birds of paradise when he doesn't have any form of reasonable argument. That's you Robert. You are the one who can't ptove a single witness claim to be accurate, or to show where a single frame of film has been tampered with. You are the one who has to crop and rotate photos to claim an exit wound is an entry wound and vice versa. You are the one who fails to understand blood splatter patterns, inertia, and the basic physics of what direction something can travel in when it passes through a hole.

All you ever other are stories from a witness, the least credible and reliable form of evidence. Even then you ignore or discount any that disagree with you. You make the mistakeof telling people to get their heads out of the sand while you clearly have a greatview of your own prostate. Your arguments are simply based on the assumption you MUST be right, with no objective value.

You apply standards to evidence against your theory you refuse to apply to that whichsupports it. If your childish standards were applied, you could never have ANY theory,because all evidence would have to be considered fake.
 
Originally Posted by Robert Prey
Funny that this "loser" was chosen to track the top secret U2 spy plane. Use your head.



"Oswald and the CIA" by John Newman

Robert, a book is not evidence.

I asked this before: What evidence does John Newman cite within the book that convinced you that Oswald had CIA associations?

Please cite it. Have you actually read the book? It appears not.

Hank
 
By "thoroughly" you seem to mean "not at all". All you have posted are CLAIMS that don't counter PHYSICAL evidence.

The person who post childish nonsense is the one who keeps repeating "baloney" or talking about birds of paradise when he doesn't have any form of reasonable argument. That's you Robert. You are the one who can't ptove a single witness claim to be accurate, or to show where a single frame of film has been tampered with. You are the one who has to crop and rotate photos to claim an exit wound is an entry wound and vice versa. You are the one who fails to understand blood splatter patterns, inertia, and the basic physics of what direction something can travel in when it passes through a hole.

All you ever other are stories from a witness, the least credible and reliable form of evidence. Even then you ignore or discount any that disagree with you. You make the mistakeof telling people to get their heads out of the sand while you clearly have a greatview of your own prostate. Your arguments are simply based on the assumption you MUST be right, with no objective value.

You apply standards to evidence against your theory you refuse to apply to that whichsupports it. If your childish standards were applied, you could never have ANY theory,because all evidence would have to be considered fake.

Then by your own standard, all of the alleged eyewitness testimony by the autopsy doctors is to be discounted as unreliable, Since the body is buried, the autopsy photos and x-rays all declared by those involved to be fake, all we have are the original eyewitness observations of the wounds in question by the Parkland Medical Personnel, the Dealey Plazaa witnesses and almost all the witnesses at Bethesda as well. You have nothing to stand on but a home movie that has also been thoroughly discredited in terms not of what you see, but what you claim you don't see.
 
Then by your own standard, all of the alleged eyewitness testimony by the autopsy doctors is to be discounted as unreliable, Since the body is buried, the autopsy photos and x-rays all declared by those involved to be fake, all we have are the original eyewitness observations of the wounds in question by the Parkland Medical Personnel, the Dealey Plazaa witnesses and almost all the witnesses at Bethesda as well. You have nothing to stand on but a home movie that has also been thoroughly discredited in terms not of what you see, but what you claim you don't see.

No, saying something is fake because of faliable witnesses is not my standard.
My standard states the Z film shows an exit wound on the temple and shots frombehind. That the Autopsy photos show wounds consistant with an exit wound on the temple and entry wound behind the ear. They clearly show this, and continue to be viable evidence until you show me where your alleged alterations are.

You claim they are innaccurate and must be fake. So show me the signs of fakery, not somebody with a CLAIM of remembering differently.

There is no kind of photographic trick that leaves no trace, no evidence. Why are you unable to show that evidence? Stop being childish and either admit you offer no reason for your assertions to be believed, or stop making the assertions until you DO have actual evidence.
 
Oh, I have a mountain of irrefutable evidence that it was indeed a conspiracy, just by the 40 plus on scene witnesses who observed a large blow-out in the back of the head. That being the case ...
First, you're falsely conflating numbers with proof. If 100 people at a festival claimed to have seen an alien spacecraft would you consider that provides greater evidence of aliens visiting Earth than 5 people in the street claiming to see an alien spacecraft? Or, would you objectively consider that in both cases some people observed something that they simply couldn't explain? Your '40 plus on scene witnesses' adds no more weight to your argument than just one witness. Would you be seeking to rely on this 'evidence' were it to depend on just one witness? The only thing that's arguably irrefutable is that a bunch of people observed something. Exactly what they observed is most definitely refutable.

Second, given the foregoing, your 'mountain', at best, becomes a molehill. Realistically, I'd term it a 'pimple' that a single application of Proactiv will rapidly clear up.

Third, 'that being the case' ...
 
First, you're falsely conflating numbers with proof. If 100 people at a festival claimed to have seen an alien spacecraft would you consider that provides greater evidence of aliens visiting Earth than 5 people in the street claiming to see an alien spacecraft? Or, would you objectively consider that in both cases some people observed something that they simply couldn't explain? Your '40 plus on scene witnesses' adds no more weight to your argument than just one witness. Would you be seeking to rely on this 'evidence' were it to depend on just one witness? The only thing that's arguably irrefutable is that a bunch of people observed something. Exactly what they observed is most definitely refutable.

Second, given the foregoing, your 'mountain', at best, becomes a molehill. Realistically, I'd term it a 'pimple' that a single application of Proactiv will rapidly clear up.

Third, 'that being the case' ...

A ridiculous analogy; a sophomoric argument. If 100,000 people observed that the home team scored a touchdown, by your logic would a certain percentage by mistaken???? A close up observation is not a fleeting, passing event that might be misconstrued.
 
No, saying something is fake because of faliable witnesses is not my standard.
My standard states the Z film shows an exit wound on the temple and shots frombehind. That the Autopsy photos show wounds consistant with an exit wound on the temple and entry wound behind the ear. They clearly show this, and continue to be viable evidence until you show me where your alleged alterations are.

You claim they are innaccurate and must be fake. So show me the signs of fakery, not somebody with a CLAIM of remembering differently.

There is no kind of photographic trick that leaves no trace, no evidence. Why are you unable to show that evidence? Stop being childish and either admit you offer no reason for your assertions to be believed, or stop making the assertions until you DO have actual evidence.

Your Z film exit wound at the temple seems to be missing from the very autopsy photos you claim are real. The signs of the autopsy photo fakery are the statements of those who took and developed them that they are fake. And as to computerized evidence of fakery, I refer you to "The Men Who Killed Kennedy" video.
 
Robert, a book is not evidence.

I asked this before: What evidence does John Newman cite within the book that convinced you that Oswald had CIA associations?

Please cite it. Have you actually read the book? It appears not.

Hank

You might try to recall the title. If LhO worked in radar at the base that tracked the U2 with radar, and the U2 was a CIA project, then use your head.
 
By "thoroughly" you seem to mean "not at all". All you have posted are CLAIMS that don't counter PHYSICAL evidence.

The person who post childish nonsense is the one who keeps repeating "baloney" or talking about birds of paradise when he doesn't have any form of reasonable argument. That's you Robert. You are the one who can't ptove a single witness claim to be accurate, or to show where a single frame of film has been tampered with. You are the one who has to crop and rotate photos to claim an exit wound is an entry wound and vice versa. You are the one who fails to understand blood splatter patterns, inertia, and the basic physics of what direction something can travel in when it passes through a hole.

All you ever other are stories from a witness, the least credible and reliable form of evidence. Even then you ignore or discount any that disagree with you. You make the mistakeof telling people to get their heads out of the sand while you clearly have a greatview of your own prostate. Your arguments are simply based on the assumption you MUST be right, with no objective value.

You apply standards to evidence against your theory you refuse to apply to that whichsupports it. If your childish standards were applied, you could never have ANY theory,because all evidence would have to be considered fake.

IN a court of law, in order for a photograph or a motion picture video to be admitted as evidence, there must first be an eyewitness or witnesses who supports the claim that the photo or movie accurately portrays what it claims to portray. Thus, you need an eyewitnesses in order to lay a foundation for a photo or a movie which you claim is superior evidence to an eyewitness. IN the case of the autopsy photos and the Z film, that would not be possible for the very people who took the autopsy photos reject them as fakes and as for the Z film, the witnesses that observed the back of K's head blow out of brains, hair, scalp and blood, would negate that as well, not to mention the fact that the film was in the hands of the very suspects of the cover-up for 12 years before their altered movie was ever presented to the public.
 
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A ridiculous analogy; a sophomoric argument. If 100,000 people observed that the home team scored a touchdown, by your logic would a certain percentage by mistaken???? A close up observation is not a fleeting, passing event that might be misconstrued.

*buzzer sound* STRAWMAN!!!!


We know what touchdowns are, we keep score with them. There officials recording said score and even if no spectator attended the game, the TD was still scored and recorded.

A UFO sighting by a million people might be interesting, but it doesn't prove that little green men from Planet X have dropped in for tea.
 
TomTom wrote:

"All you ever other are stories from a witness, the least credible and reliable form of evidence. Even then you ignore or discount any that disagree with you.."

Question: Just out of curiosity, what witnesses disagree with me????
 
Question: Just out of curiosity, what witnesses disagree with me????


Me. My eyewitness testimony shows that your "evidence" is moot. You can't even acknowledge that I exist, my testimony is so devastating to the case you pretend to have.
 
TomTom wrote:

"All you ever other are stories from a witness, the least credible and reliable form of evidence. Even then you ignore or discount any that disagree with you.."

Question: Just out of curiosity, what witnesses disagree with me????

Lets start with the ones who saw oswald in the tsbd. Those who saw him shoot tippet. Those who recieved signed "fake" photos of him with the murder weapon. Those who witnessed the fingerprints being taken on the shells, rifle, etc...
 
You might try to recall the title. If LhO worked in radar at the base that tracked the U2 with radar, and the U2 was a CIA project, then use your head.


The title of the book is not evidence either, Robert. You do seem to have difficulty understanding what evidence is. Please present some evidence that Oswald had any connection with the CIA. Working with radar in the Marine Corps does not qualify.

Hank
 
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IN a court of law, in order for a photograph or a motion picture video to be admitted as evidence, there must first be an eyewitness or witnesses who supports the claim that the photo or movie accurately portrays what it claims to portray. Thus, you need an eyewitnesses in order to lay a foundation for a photo or a movie which you claim is superior evidence to an eyewitness. IN the case of the autopsy photos and the Z film, that would not be possible for the very people who took the autopsy photos reject them as fakes and as for the Z film, the witnesses that observed the back of K's head blow out of brains, hair, scalp and blood, would negate that as well, not to mention the fact that the film was in the hands of the very suspects of the cover-up for 12 years before their altered movie was ever presented to the public.


Zapruder's testimony to the Warren Commission is here:
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/zapruder.htm

Zapruder testified to the Warren Commission, authenticating first where he was standing, on the concrete abutment in Dealey Plaza:

Mr. LIEBELER - I show you a picture that has been marked Hudson Exhibit No. 1 and ask you if you can in fact see yourself in that picture?
Mr. ZAPRUDER - Let me see--there it is here. That's me standing there--there's a girl--that's where I was standing.
Mr. LIEBELER - You are pointing out a concrete abutment that comes up immediately to the right of the sign that reads "Stemmons Freeway, Keep Right"?
Mr. ZAPRUDER - That's right. That's the girl behind me--that's my girl that works in my office. She was up there, too.


Here's Hudson Exhibit #1 http://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh20/html/WH_Vol20_0102a.htm

Zapruder can be seen in the image on the abutment above and to the right of the Stemmons freeway sign.

He was shown a book of frames from his film. He authenticated many of the individual frames taken from the film here:

Mr. LIEBELER - Now, specifically here let me show you the ones that have been numbered 185 and 186 and see if you can recognize those. This is 185 here that we are looking at now--of Commission Exhibit No. 885.
Mr. ZAPRUDER - Yes. This is where he came in from Houston Street and turned there.
Mr. LIEBELER - Yes; and they are going down Elm Street now?
Mr. ZAPRUDER - Yes; this is before--this shouldn't be there the--shot wasn't fired, was it? You can't tell from here?
Mr. LIEBELER - (no response).
Mr. ZAPRUDER - I believe it was closer down here where it happened. Of course, on the film they could see better but you take an 8 millimeter and you enlarge it in color or in black and white, you lose a lot of detail. I wish I had an enlarger here for you.
Mr. LIEBELER - In any event, frame No. 185 does look like it's one of the frames, sir?
Mr. ZAPRUDER - Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER - And 186 is similar also?
Mr. ZAPRUDER - Yes.


I am not going to quote it all, but he is shown and individually authenticates frames 207, 222, 225, 227, 228, 229, 230, 231, 235, 240, 249, 255, and 313.

Finally, he is asked if the film is as he took it. He responds yes.

Mr. LIEBELER - It appears to you then, that this book of pictures here as you look through it, are your pictures?
Mr. ZAPRUDER - Yes.


He was looking at photos from this exhibit: http://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh18/html/WH_Vol18_0008a.htm

Now, that alone is sufficient to get that film introduced into the record.

But there is more. Zapruder also authenticated the film when he testified at the conspiracy trial of Clay Shaw. You remember that trial? It was for the purpose of establishing that there was a conspiracy by Clay Shaw and others to assassinate President John Fitzgerald Kennedy. Zapruder's film was admitted into evidence in a real trial in 1969. It was shown in open court in 1969 and seen by those court witnesses in public session. Zapruder validated it then as well.

http://www.jfk-online.com/zaprudershaw2.html

THE COURT: ...Mr. Zapruder, when this equipment is properly rigged up and they play this film, don't say anything while they are playing the film. You will be asked questions after the film is played.
(WHEREUPON, the film was shown.)
THE COURT: Before we bring the Jury in, I think the State has to ask a question of this witness.
MR. DYMOND: There is one question I would like to ask also, Judge.
THE COURT: Let Mr. Oser ask his question first.
BY MR. OSER: Q: Mr. Zapruder, from having seen the film just projected on the screen, can you tell us whether or not this represents what you saw on November 22, 1963, after your original film was developed in Dallas, Texas?
A: I would say they do.
THE COURT: I didn't hear you again.
THE WITNESS: I would say that they do. Yes, they do.


You like to pretend the film wasn't seen until 1975. That is false. You like to pretend your supposed medical witnesses would be sufficient to get the film thrown out of court, but that is likewise a lie. It was admitted into evidence and shown several times at the trial of Clay Shaw.

You do have different standards for evidence against a conspiracy than for one. If the evidence indicates a conspiracy, like the statements of Ed Hoffman, you are all for them, even though Hoffman didn't come forward with any story until 1967, and in its first incarnation, spoke of seeing men leaving the TSBD. By the 1970's, he was speaking of seeing men on the knoll, but his story as published in his book is directly contradicted by the men who were known to be there on 11/22/63, like Sam Holland. You accepted Hoffman's statements as indicating conspiracy anyway.

Ditto with the March 3rd supposed "Oswald was CIA" memo you introduced here. You argued for its validity, and argued the May 8th "Oswald wasn't CIA" memo wasn't legit, because McCone in it was speaking for the FBI - enough, you said, to render it invalid, as McCone didn't have the authority to speak for the FBI. But it was actually the March 3 "Oswald was CIA" memo in which McCone spoke for the FBI, as I pointed out and you conceded when you admitted: "As to the May memo and the FBI. I'm afraid you are correct. For once." Now you've switched your tune back however, and McCone speaking for the FBI is apparently not enough to render it invalid. Instead, you claim the March 3 memo still "rings true" and "As far as you or I or anyone would know, that March memo may indeed be authentic. Certainly looks authentic." So even after you admitted you were wrong about the March 3 memo, you continue to post about the same evidence you previously conceded was false as if it were true.

If the evidence - like films and photos - disagree with your favorite conspiracy witnesses, then you discount that hard evidence entirely, and allege it is worthless. In your world, maybe it is. But in the real world, where the trial of Clay Shaw took place, it was admitted and viewed by the jury.

Let me reiterate the central point of this post in case you still don't understand it. Your claim that "... as for the Z film, the witnesses that observed the back of K's head blow out of brains, hair, scalp and blood, would negate that as well..." Well, as we've seen from the real life trial of Clay Shaw, no, it wouldn't. That is a lie. The Zapruder film was authenticated by Abraham Zapruder, accepted in the conspiracy trial of Clay Shaw, and shown in open court in 1969.

Your claims are false. The film is legit. All you've done is allege it isn't. You have not proven that, and your supposed '40 witnesses' don't prove that either.

And in fact, what you claim is necessary in court has in fact been done:

IN a court of law, in order for a photograph or a motion picture video to be admitted as evidence, there must first be an eyewitness or witnesses who supports the claim that the photo or movie accurately portrays what it claims to portray. Thus, you need an eyewitnesses in order to lay a foundation for a photo or a movie which you claim is superior evidence to an eyewitness...


So the Zapruder film, since it was authenticated in open court by the man who filmed it, is, by your OWN ADMISSION, superior evidence to any eyewitness you intend to call to the stand. You wrote that was what was necessary to establish it as superior. That was done. In 1969. 43 years ago. Get up to speed here.

Go ahead, dismiss this all as baloney.

Hank
 
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Roberts claims about motion pictures are somewhat iffy. Cctv footage and security tapes would seem the obvious flaw.
 
Question: Just out of curiosity, what witnesses disagree with me????


Sam Holland and the seven men on the overpass dispute entirely the story as told by Ed Hoffman that you introduced here:

...And then there is the witness who actually saw two men with the rifle, a puff of smoke, and dis-assemble the rifle, place in a tool box, and casually walk away toward the railroad tracks. That's why there was no rifle found. That witness being Ed Hoffman who claims the FBI tried to shut him up with bribery. Now all that is left for your and your Amen chorus of naysayers is to do what you have attempted to do with every other witness. Time for the mud. No more need be said.


Bill Newman saw a large wound in the temple and described no damage to the back of the head. Ditto with Abraham Zapruder. We've covered this all extensively. You were never able to disprove those first day accounts.

Ditto with literally dozens of other eyewitnesses in Dealey Plaza.

Hank
 
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Roberts claims about motion pictures are somewhat iffy. Cctv footage and security tapes would seem the obvious flaw.


To get film from unmanned security apparatus admitted, I believe you might have to call a technician to explain how the closed-circuit / security system worked, and that technician would then testify that he installed or maintained this system, and that the system was working as designed, and finally, that this film shows what happened at said location at the time that the film shows time-stamped in the corner of the film. I believe that would be all that is necessary.

But for a man-made film or photo, the actual person who films or photographs the scene would be sufficient to validate it, as Robert says, and as applies in the case of the Zapruder film as validated in the Clay Shaw case.

Quite simply, Robert is his own worst enemy here.

Hank
 
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Sam Holland and the seven men on the overpass dispute entirely the story as told by Ed Hoffman that you introduced here:




Bill Newman saw a large wound in the temple and described no damage to the back of the head. Ditto with Abraham Zapruder. We've covered this all extensively. You were never able to disprove those first day accounts.

Ditto with literally dozens of other eyewitnesses in Dealey Plaza.

Hank

To say that Sam Holland, Bill Newman and Abe Z stated that there was no damage to the back of the head is false and dishonest. They were in no position to view the back of the head. Others were, and did state the back of K's head -- brains, blood, hair, scalp, were blown out from the back of his head.
 
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