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Explain consciousness to the layman.

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Moral:

So oft in theologic wars,
The disputants, I ween,
Rail on in utter ignorance
Of what each other mean,
And prate about an Elephant
Not one of them has seen![/I]



Precisely..... except the railing is being done by the people who seem to have forgotten that they too have not seen the elephant and in fact unlike in the poem they have not even touched it, but yet are so sure of their opinion as to malign anyone who disagrees..... much like theists.

As far as this subject is concerned we have REALITY and then we have SPECULATIONS. Ones that opt to go with reality as a safe bet are being maligned, derided and belittled by the ones who seem to be convinced that their imaginative speculations are reality and the only reason the realists are disagreeing is out of doltishness...... much like theists are convinced that their god is a reality and the only reason atheists are not able to see the “fact” is either out of impertinent evilness or stupidity or both.

And much like the tactics utilized by theists in their argumentation, they go so far as to employ logical fallacies and ad hominems aplenty and equivocations and obfuscations all in the effort to dismiss reality and their PRIDE would never even allow them to concede that they have not even touched let alone seen the elephant.
 
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Wow.

This is astounding.

And I mean that honestly, I'm actually surprised.

You seem literally incapable of viewing the marble machine, even temporarily, as a physical object devoid of symbology.
What's that supposed to mean? You're referring to some entity you call "the pattern 2" which exists in multiple places, that I'm supposed to make a green square. That's clear as mud. There is a pattern that is 2 on the machine--there are two things you can be talking about. There's the state of the entire machine with the second column from the right having a marble with it, and there is the second column simply having a marble with it.

In either case, it is in one location. And when you say to replace the "pattern 2" with a green square, what are you replacing? The marble? The rocker?

You need to explain yourself clearly, Piggy.
Well, if you can't do that, then I'm sorry, we quite literally can't discuss the topic any further than we have, I believe.
I agree. If you cannot explain yourself clearly there won't be any progress.

ETA: Is this just me? Does anyone else know what Piggy's talking about?
 
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What's that supposed to mean? You're referring to some entity you call "the pattern 2" which exists in multiple places, that I'm supposed to make a green square. That's clear as mud. There is a pattern that is 2 on the machine--there are two things you can be talking about. There's the state of the entire machine with the second column from the right having a marble with it, and there is the second column simply having a marble with it.

In either case, it is in one location. And when you say to replace the "pattern 2" with a green square, what are you replacing? The marble? The rocker?

You need to explain yourself clearly, Piggy.
I agree. If you cannot explain yourself clearly there won't be any progress.

ETA: Is this just me? Does anyone else know what Piggy's talking about?


I don't ... so let's pretend I'm the layman that you're explaining consciousness to ... which I am ... I've got no academic credentials. So can someone sum it up for me here ... who's the expert?
 
Just a bit harder, Leumas. You almost have me convinced !


Let me see if I can explain to you what it means when I reply with a succinct No to a post from PixyMisa.

It is not my methodology. I am using the methods of PixyMisa against him.

He is the one who first utilized this against me and others and he explained it perfectly well.

A simple no only works when you have established your position and the other party is talking nonsense.


In other words it is a succinct way of telling the poster being replied to that he is talking nonsense without bothering to explain in detail because they are incapable of understanding.

I was being dismissive and derisive back to PixyMisa using his own style in reciprocation and to give a taste of it back to him and others like him who take all the time and effort to go around responding to posts with ONE word like “Nonsense” or “No”.

Do you understand now….. it is not my method…. I normally try to explain to people in more detail when I think they are worthwhile or just not bother at all if they are not..... which is what I was about to do to your post.... but I opted to see if you might be salvageable by responding with this lengthy explanation instead of just ignoring you or answering you back with a No.... we’ll see.
 
Wow.

This is astounding.

And I mean that honestly, I'm actually surprised.

You seem literally incapable of viewing the marble machine, even temporarily, as a physical object devoid of symbology.

Well, if you can't do that, then I'm sorry, we quite literally can't discuss the topic any further than we have, I believe.

It is more than astounding it is scary.

To think that people that only see their contribution to reality as real are walking freely on the streets instead of being locked up for there and our safety.
 
You cannot be serious.

That's palpable nonsense. It can be tested on any calculator - add two buses to five buses and you'll find you get exactly the same answer as adding two apples to five apples. The calculator has no concept of what it's adding up and the calculation works just as well with either.

This applies to just about every real computer program. They always refer to information that isn't included in the program, and is not implicit in the program. The meaning of the symbols isn't included in the program and nor are the complete relationships between the symbols.

There are certain things so blatantly obvious that it seems absurd to even be refuting it.
 
Comes with the territory or should that be the map in Pixy Misa's case?


Why would elitism come with the territory of a thread purporting to explain consciousness to a lay person ... oh wait ... I think I just answered my own question there ... now who's the expert here with all the answers again?
 
Why would elitism come with the territory of a thread purporting to explain consciousness to a lay person ... oh wait ... I think I just answered my own question there ... now who's the expert here with all the answers again?



A few around here seem to think they are and are ready to defend their DELUSION with as much venomous invective and acerbic pompous elitism as most theists usually do.

The facts are that no one really knows and as the science stands today there are only ideas and hypotheses but no one has of yet pinned it down.

But, there is nothing PIXY ;) about it…. Whatever it is, it is not magical nor supernatural or extra-natural. It is mainly the result of the physics, chemistry and biology of how the brain works

It is possibly an emergent synergetic property of the critical mass of complexity that the brain bundle has evolved to be. It is perhaps the result of all the positive and negative feedback loops of all the sensory input and output signals combined with the attenuation, convolution, augmentation, reverberation, initiation and relaying of electrochemical signals combined with cross talk and cross sparking between various and all parts of the closely INTERTWINED and CONVOLUTED BUNDLE of matter called the brain.




See this post and this one for more details of what I CONJECTURE.

But that is precisely the point..... the fact that we can imagine things is exactly the point.

When we imagine things that have never existed in reality it means that we created something that has no basis in reality.

This does not then make it possible to become reality just because our real brain imagined it. There will never exist a flying spaghetti monster just because we could imagine one.

Therein lays the problem with this debate.

We can IMAGINE that a simulated sentient world can exist in the ones and zeros of silicon chips.....but that does mean that it is POSSIBLE for this imaginary construct to actually exist.

There are REAL PHYSICAL constraints why it cannot exist. These constraints cannot be IMAGINED AWAY.

We can imagine that a machine that simulates the action of the brain as we understand it may give rise to a brain like a real brain. But the imaginary aspect did not take into account the real physical constraints why this may not be possible.

The brain is the result of billions of years of evolution that eventually gave rise to the bundle of biological matter that interacts within and without itself and can maintain electrical impulses from within and without while also modifying, reverberating, attenuating, augmenting and initiating these signals and cross talking and cross sparking and so on and so forth along with a combination of internal and external positive and negative feedback systems that give rise to even more feedback.
I think it stands to reason that an inert collection of doped Silicon might not quite be up to the same task since the kind of processes that occur in the brain are not taking place regardless of the simulation being run. The physical process is NOT the same process.

The design of a high frequency circuit has to take into consideration the effects of lengths and width and proximity of conducting lines and ground planes which at low frequencies do not affect the system. A perfectly working digital logic circuit can fail if the frequency of switching is raised beyond a certain level due to capacitances and inductances that at the lower frequencies had no effect while at the higher frequencies made all the difference.

When we build scale models to carry out some experiments say of earthquake effects on a dam we do not just scale down things. There has to be further consideration for the fact that some things behave differently at a small scale than at the larger scale. For example the surface tension of water and Van der Waal forces can come into play at the smaller scale while at the larger scale they are immaterial.

Take for example the Jesus Lizard. If it is scaled up it won’t be able to run on water….yet it is the same lizard for all intents and purposes. Something got lost in the transformation…. What is it?

What I am trying to say with all this is that certain SYNERGETIC and EMERGENT properties of COMPLEX systems can be drastically affected due to differences in physical interactions within the subsystems and changing the nature or scale of these physical interactions will change the overall system and most likely not give rise to the same emergent and synergetic effects.



I think the problem with all this "could", "may be", and "possibly" is that most of the people who are hypothesizing that "simulation=reality" have either never built a simulation or a computer or neither.

If one actually builds a computer from scratch....I do not mean assemble one.... I mean actually make a processor from scratch using FPGAs or actual transistors and all the memory and other peripherals needed.... then one might get an appreciation for how unlikely that it would ever become conscious regardless of the sophistication of the simulation software it is running.

The fact that a computer needs software is PRECISELY why it is not ever going to be a brain. Brains DO NOT RUN SOFTWARE.

In my opinion the only thing that we might build that has any chance of approaching a brain is an actual brain-like mechanism like Neural Networks. And I do not mean a SIMULATED NN.... I mean an actual one with OpAmps and actual neural connections.....and even then it would have to have a certain CRITICAL MASS of connections and nodes.

I personally think that consciousness is an EMERGENT PROPERTY of A CRITICAL MASS of COMPLEXITY..... much like the individual cells in a body ALONE would not be able to crawl out of a primordial pool but as they COALESCED they created a SYNERGY where the whole is greater than the sum. The reason brains do more than just input and output is an EMERGENT PROPERTY OF THE CRITICAL MASS of brain matter and activity. The brain can be its own SIDE-EFFECT INPUTS that are not actually inputs from anything real except that they are a result of INTRA-CEREBRAL activity. In other words, because of the brain’s bundling it has become its own “universe” where echoes of PAST EXTERNAL inputs may reverberate and rebound and regenerate and be maintained and these become side-effect inputs to other systems within the brain. The same for brain outputs…. they too can be side-tracked and become UNINTENDED inputs to other parts and again be maintained and reverberated etc.
Look at epileptics…. They often report that just before a seizure they see images and or hear sounds and often smell aromas that to them are as real as the real thing. We know epilepsy is a result of UNREGULATED CROSS FIRING of electrical activity from one part of the brain to another. What if on a smaller and SUBTLER scale some SHORTING can actually produce EVOLUTIONARY SELECTED FOR effects. Maybe THOUGHT is nothing but “epileptic fits” so to speak that have elevated the ENVIRONMENTAL FITNESS of the organisms that had them instead of producing convulsions and loss of control over the body... :confused::confused::confused:

If that is the case then maybe even Neural Nets won’t reach that threshold even with a critical mass unless we allow for RANDOM SHORTINGS that eventually evolve into CONTROLLED SHORTINGS… :confused: :confused: :confused:
 
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A few around here seem to think they are and are ready to defend their DELUSION with as much venomous invective and acerbic pompous elitism as most theists usually do.

The facts are that no one really knows and as the science stands today there are only ideas and hypotheses but no one has of yet pinned it down.

But, there is nothing PIXY ;) about it…. Whatever it is, it is not magical nor supernatural or extra-natural. It is mainly the result of the physics, chemistry and biology of how the brain works

It is possibly an emergent synergetic property of the critical mass of complexity that the brain bundle has evolved to be. It is perhaps the result of all the positive and negative feedback mechanism of all the sensory input and output signals combined with the attenuation, augmentation, reverberation, initiation and relaying of electrical signals combined with cross talk and cross sparking between various and all parts of the closely INTERTWINED and CONVOLUTED BUNDLE of matter called the brain.


Good answer ... it goes along with my current thinking that our consciousness is an emergent property of a normally functioning and awake human brain/body combination. Extrapolating from this we might suggest that a machine construct ... a processor/sensory IO/adaptive programming combination might produce a similar emergent property.
 
Good answer ... it goes along with my current thinking that our consciousness is an emergent property of a normally functioning and awake human brain/body combination. Extrapolating from this we might suggest that a machine construct ... a processor/sensory IO/adaptive programming combination might produce a similar emergent property.


The problem with extrapolation is that unless we have extremely good data and a very good curve fitting algorithm and we are LUCKY then the extrapolation is no more than a HOPEFUL GUESS.

But, hey, that is the best we can do for now.....the problem however with this topic, is that we neither have good data, nor do we know how to create the curve fitting algorithm that would best fit the data we do not yet have.

So when we speculate that we might be able to extrapolate it is nothing but WISHFUL THINKING at this juncture of REALITY.....but it makes for good Science Fiction and JREF threads.
 
The problem with extrapolation is that unless we have extremely good data and a very good curve fitting algorithm and we are LUCKY then the extrapolation is no more than a HOPEFUL GUESS.

But, hey, that is the best we can do for now.....the problem however with this topic, is that we neither have good data, nor do we know how to create the curve fitting algorithm that would best fit the data we do not yet have.

So when we speculate that we might be able to extrapolate it is nothing but WISHFUL THINKING at this juncture of REALITY.....but it makes for good Science Fiction and JREF threads.


All fair comments. I think there is some data from our ongoing attempts that can be applied to the results of psychological testing for humans and that some people have tried doing this, but so far everything has failed. e.g. Turing Tests. Even then if one did pass a Turing Test, does that intelligence equate to consciousness?
 
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All fair comments. I think there is some data from our ongoing attempts that can be applied to the results of psychological testing for humans and that some people have tried doing this, but so far everything has failed. e.g. Turing Tests. Even then if one did pass a Turing Test, does that intelligence equate to consciousness?

That's easy, set the bar low, somewhere around moving rocks around in the desert. Then claim victory without actually attempting to empirically verify the claim.Don't forget to proclaim skeptics of your theory are dualists since theory = data. And when you really want to get deep, claim there is no real data only theory.
 
That's easy, set the bar low, somewhere around moving rocks around in the desert. Then claim victory without actually attempting to empirically verify the claim.Don't forget to proclaim skeptics of your theory are dualists since theory = data. And when you really want to get deep, claim there is no real data only theory.


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Yeah, and so do simulators.

And those two are not the same.

They can't be, because if they were, it wouldn't be a simulation, it would be a replication.

If you have a simulation, some difference between what the simulation and simulator are doing is a requirement.

Which means that if you replace anything with an object that's running a simulation of that object (unless it's a redundant simulation of the simulator machine) there must be real differences in the system as a result.

My mistake. Simulators DO stuff. Brains do stuff. Simulations and consciousness are things they do, respectively.
 
Let me see if I can explain to you what it means when I reply with a succinct No to a post from PixyMisa.

It is not my methodology. I am using the methods of PixyMisa against him.

He is the one who first utilized this against me and others and he explained it perfectly well.

So you are trying to show the superiority of your arguments by using the same arguments someone else uses and that you imply have no value ?
 
That sounds rather elitist.

Actually, "Nah, that ain't it, there's gotta be a magic bean involved somewhere." sounds rather populist.

By the way, Westprog, Leumas, Ufology... when you're done patting yourselves on the back, you may want to contribute something worthwhile, here.

At least piggy is trying.
 
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