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Richard Gage Blueprint for Truth Rebuttals on YouTube by Chris Mohr

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The fact Kevin Ryan refused out right to participate/provide samples to Jim's study should speak louder to 9/11 truthers more than anything.

What a ****** coward.

Mr Mohr, you have the patience and manners of a saint. To be able to stand up tall as professionally as you have done in the face of such obvious and coward red herrings and personal attacks is admirable.

I take my hat off to you. Well done.
 
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call me silly, but what do the truthers use as an excuse for why WTC 7 was blown up? It would make very little sense for an inside job to blow up a symbol of America to also include some small little insignificant building next door?

Cheney-

"yes yes, we shall blow up the twin towers and we shall have an excuse to attack the middle east!"

Bush-
"and that little building next door, I hate that stupid building"

Cheney- "sure, whatevr you say Georgie!"


It would be like setting explosives in the Sears Tower and then deciding to blow up the public library for good measure.... eh?
 
call me silly, but what do the truthers use as an excuse for why WTC 7 was blown up? It would make very little sense for an inside job to blow up a symbol of America to also include some small little insignificant building next door?

Cheney-

"yes yes, we shall blow up the twin towers and we shall have an excuse to attack the middle east!"

Bush-
"and that little building next door, I hate that stupid building"

Cheney- "sure, whatevr you say Georgie!"


It would be like setting explosives in the Sears Tower and then deciding to blow up the public library for good measure.... eh?

Exactly the main flaw in the CT argument; How does 7, or Silverstein, or insurance fraud, tie in with the objective of a 9/11 conspiracy?

The best I've heard is that, because there were offices for secrete service, intelligence agencies etc that all the plans/firing switches for the explosives in the towers were in 7, so they took it down to cover it up..

A lot of work to destroy a filing cabinet and a couple of hard drives, but it makes perfect logical sense to truthers, and thats all that matters to them.

There was once a theory I heard from a truther at ground zero that there was an 'infra ray' in wtc 7 that guided the aircraft to their targets.. yeah.. :rolleyes:
 
call me silly, but what do the truthers use as an excuse for why WTC 7 was blown up? It would make very little sense for an inside job to blow up a symbol of America to also include some small little insignificant building next door?

Cheney-

"yes yes, we shall blow up the twin towers and we shall have an excuse to attack the middle east!"

Bush-
"and that little building next door, I hate that stupid building"

Cheney- "sure, whatevr you say Georgie!"


It would be like setting explosives in the Sears Tower and then deciding to blow up the public library for good measure.... eh?

Dontchya know?

All the SEC documents wrt the Enron scandal was taken to their 7 WTC office and blowed up real good. I think it's logical - if the NWO doesn't know what a paper shredder is, it stands to reason they haven't heard about photocopiers either.
 
call me silly, but what do the truthers use as an excuse for why WTC 7 was blown up? It would make very little sense for an inside job to blow up a symbol of America to also include some small little insignificant building next door?

Cheney-

"yes yes, we shall blow up the twin towers and we shall have an excuse to attack the middle east!"

Bush-
"and that little building next door, I hate that stupid building"

Cheney- "sure, whatevr you say Georgie!"


It would be like setting explosives in the Sears Tower and then deciding to blow up the public library for good measure.... eh?
Truthers have one reason for focussing on WTC7. They focus on WTC7 because the collapse mechanism was hidden.

Remember that truthers "debate" tactics major on a couple of bits of false logic. Two of those which are relevant to WTC7 are:
1) Reverse burden of proof; AND
2) Demand proof of a negative.

Now the mechanisms of collapse of the twins are pretty much out in the open and easy to see. Certainly the progression stage or "global collapse" is so open than any use of explosives would be obvious. Remember "squibs" which the truthers tried to misrepresent as explosives. Much of the initiation, but not all, was also visible - the inward bowing of perimeter columns for one example. Sagging of floor trusses for another.

So, try as they might to claim CD the truthers were not able to sustain claims of CD of the Twin Towers because so much evidence was out in the open for all to see.

Along comes WTC7 and most of the detail is hidden. A godsend to truther tactics.

Simply stated the truther tactics for WTC7 are:
First claim that it looks like CD (It doesn't but that doesn't bother a truther.)
Then claim that since it looks like CD it must be CD.
Then pass the baton to the debunkers to rebut:
You debunkers have to prove it wasn't CD. << Note reversal of burden of proof AND demand to prove a negative. Both logical no-no's but too many debunkers go along with the logic and end up arguing on ground chosen by the truther/trolls. Poor military tactics.

So IMO that is the main and original reason for the truther focus on WTC7.

As trolling has continued over WTC7 we see discussion of red herring issues - first thermXte which is one order remote from the real question. i.e. There must have been CD because there was thermXte present. (Yes, I know, several quantum leaps of missing logic -- but we are dealing with truthers/trolls)

Then along comes a second order remote issue - iron rich microspheres and the claim: "Iron rich microspheres can only result from thermXte (false but...remember we are dealing with truthers or trolls) therefore because we have microspheres we must have thermXte which means we must have CD.

And both of those side line or red herring topics resulting in truther/troll delights. Thousands of posts discussing red herrings - no progress in the discussion AND truthers keeping the discussion going round in circles. What could better suit their objectives?

Clever folks some of these truther/trolls.

BTW I'm trying to predict where the next red herring will take us. I have suggested it could be arguing over the colour of the left side of an iron rich microsphere...but knowing truther/trolls can be opportunistic so they could go anywhere.

The only certainty is that it will be another irrelevancy. Remember the real question is "Was there CD?" and the answer to that is "No!" Truthers have no argument to address that reality so keep discussion going nowhere is their best ploy.
 
Exactly guys... and Silverstein just decided, on the spur of the moment, to 'order' FDNY to demolish the building - over the phone mind you - to save lives, even though there was nobody working in the building at that time except some security.
On 9/11, after the twin towers had collapsed, and while FDNY had just lost hundreds of personnel.

We have it from Ergo - he said 'pull it', meaning 'FDNY Chief, pull building 7'.

That's their story....:boggled:
 
Wow, Chris...


This:
And as for Cate Jenkins herself, even if she had lambasted Dr. Millette, I would question the objectivity of her accusations after reading the decision of a judge who threw out a different 1998 complaint of hers against the EPA (see page 21 of this decision):

http://www.oalj.dol.gov/Decisions/A...988swd00002_(jul_10_1998)_163727_cadec_sd.HTM

As I said: I’m willing to address legitimate concerns about Dr. Millette and why I chose him, but I am unwilling to engage in endless debates about my honesty or whether Dr. Millette is “deceitful.”
...should be required reading for everyone involved in this debate! Actually, most legaltaining document I have seen so far!

Starts off with (on page 20, 21):
1. Complainant’s Credibility

Claimant’s credibility is the key issue in this case, both because there is frequent conflict between her version of events and that of other witnesses and because her perception of events is the principal component in her belief that she has been discriminated against for her protected activities. Accordingly, much of this part of the decision will address claimant’s credibility. Getting right to the point, Cate Jenkins is the most disingenuous, evasive, and self- serving witness I have ever observed. She is an intense woman who believes that any means are acceptable if, in her view, the ends are desirable, including lying (even under oath), searching through co-workers' personal effects, and leaking confidential information. She further believes that any person, rule, or law which stands in her way can be ignored. She has acted and continues to act as if she believes she is the only person at EPA who is concerned with the public interest and everyone else is selling out to the industries regulated by EPA. Accordingly, she irrationally assumes that every criticism of her job performance, no matter how obviously valid, is part of a plan to impede her efforts to protect the public and the environment. It does not appear to have entered her mind that proposals which differ from hers may nevertheless be meritorious or even worthy of consideration, nor does it appear to have occurred to her that her "ends justify the means" philosophy may compromise both her credibility and that of the EPA. Dr. Jenkins' sanctimonious, condescending, and distrusting attitude toward her colleagues made it inevitable that serious problems would develop in her employment relationships
And then the judge goes on to list examples and incidents to prove these points for a whopping 7 pages! 7 out of 16 pages of discussion of the merits of this case deal with the lying, deceiving, scheming, immoral and out-of-touch-with-reality personality of Cate Jenkins.

Predictably, that's the kind of person whose judgement Kevin Ryan would trust.
 
Wow, Chris...


This:

...should be required reading for everyone involved in this debate! Actually, most legaltaining document I have seen so far!

Starts off with (on page 20, 21):

And then the judge goes on to list examples and incidents to prove these points for a whopping 7 pages! 7 out of 16 pages of discussion of the merits of this case deal with the lying, deceiving, scheming, immoral and out-of-touch-with-reality personality of Cate Jenkins.

Predictably, that's the kind of person whose judgement Kevin Ryan would trust.

Correct me if I'm wrong but I think in this post by Mohr it's explained that if Ryan did trust Jenkins, he would have to trust her praising them as being "credible and prestigious."

That description of Jenkins is hilarious, I love the idea that a judge was able to fill up 7 pages of examples for how crazy Jenkins is.

ETA: What does Harrit think about this? My only exposure to him was his debates with Thomas and he didn't seem like a jerk/close minded to this sort of thing...
 
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Correct me if I'm wrong but I think in this post by Mohr it's explained that if Ryan did trust Jenkins, he would have to trust her praising them as being "credible and prestigious."

That description of Jenkins is hilarious, I love the idea that a judge was able to fill up 7 pages of examples for how crazy Jenkins is.

ETA: What does Harrit think about this? My only exposure to him was his debates with Thomas and he didn't seem like a jerk/close minded to this sort of thing...

Yes, you're basically right. If Kevin wants to quote Cate Jenkins as evidence that Millette is fraudulent, he's stuck with the fact that she regards him as "highly prestigious" and never really said anything directly against him. However, I admit I am "hedging my bet" by bringing up the court decision against her: in case at some other point (in the past or the future) she did attack Millette, I want to make it clear I consider her opinion to have no credibility either way. This is not only because of the court decision, but even before seeing that, when I read her complaints I thought "something is way off here." There's more I found out about her as well, but it seemed pointless to say more than necessary to establish her lack of credibility in my eyes.

Niels Harrit has called this study "pathetic" and chided someone for wasting his time by bringing it up to him in an email. In his mind, the study was damned from the start because Jim Millette has ties to the government. My attempt to communicate with him a year ago brought a stream of invective right off the bat. Kevin Ryan was much more patient with me, at least at first. I have no interest in communicating with Niels Harrit or for that matter David Chandler, both of whom have been extremely hostile towards me. I've maintained a good friendship with Richard Gage and three other top 9/11 activists and am on very good terms with several others, some of whom actively support my work. That's why I say you can't generalize about 9/11 people... on either side.
 
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call me silly, but what do the truthers use as an excuse for why WTC 7 was blown up? It would make very little sense for an inside job to blow up a symbol of America to also include some small little insignificant building next door?

Cheney-

"yes yes, we shall blow up the twin towers and we shall have an excuse to attack the middle east!"

Bush-
"and that little building next door, I hate that stupid building"

Cheney- "sure, whatevr you say Georgie!"


It would be like setting explosives in the Sears Tower and then deciding to blow up the public library for good measure.... eh?

At least you understand that WTC 7 was blown up and as a result pretty much pulverized to dust. That's a start.
 
Correct me if I'm wrong but I think in this post by Mohr it's explained that if Ryan did trust Jenkins, he would have to trust her praising them as being "credible and prestigious."
...

Millette and MVA are hardly mentioned by Jenkins. I wouldn't go as far as Chris and state that Jenkins positively "praises" them and puts her trust in them.
Which doesn't matter much when it comes to K. Ryan - in typical truther fashion, he is less interested in what people really say, and more in how what they say can be quote-mind and construed to mean whatever suits his purpose.

Chris is totally right to point out that nothing in Jenkin's complaint incriminates Millette, but I'd not bet my right hand that she would defend Millette against Ryan, if specifically asked.



ETA: Re Harrit, I have heard that he is already planning a retreat from their 2009 thermite paper, downplaying its importance, as if to say "even if you prove us wrong on the red-gray chips, it still was a CD and there still was thermite, because our faith is strong".
 
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Here is a brief excerpt of a response from Niels Harrit about the Millette study. I guess I'll try to slog through these links now. Since it's not a direct answer to the study (which no one has yet fully seen), it seemed better to be posted over here:


There is now more than ten independent observations that implicates
the use of thermite and/or energetic composite material.

You propably know most of them but here are the latest: All fragments
that are shot out of the towers have white, regular traces behind
them. What do you think they are? Do you think that concrete or gypsum
would create traces like that? It is aluminumoxide.

You may ponder a little over some of the latest observations:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DChR1XcYhlw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PTMR_-eMBII&feature=player_embedded
http://www.911blogger.com/blog/5343

st observations: You probably also saw Susan Lindauer's video (After
20 minutes she mentions
thermite)http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oiqEm6jam1o&feature=player_embedded

And there is also this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i6eMq5Rit1w&feature=youtu.be
 
Yes, you're basically right. If Kevin wants to quote Cate Jenkins as evidence that Millette is fraudulent, he's stuck with the fact that she regards him as "highly prestigious" and never really said anything directly against him. However, I admit I am "hedging my bet" by bringing up the court decision against her: in case at some other point (in the past or the future) she did attack Millette, I want to make it clear I consider her opinion to have no credibility either way. This is not only because of the court decision, but even before seeing that, when I read her complaints I thought "something is way off here." There's more I found out about her as well, but it seemed pointless to say more than necessary to establish her lack of credibility in my eyes.

Yeah that description of her from the judge doesn't really make her sound too appealing.

Niels Harrit has called this study "pathetic" and chided someone for wasting his time by bringing it up to him in an email. In his mind, the study was damned from the start because Jim Millette has ties to the government. My attempt to communicate with him a year ago brought a stream of invective right off the bat. Kevin Ryan was much more patient with me, at least at first. I have no interest in communicating with Niels Harrit or for that matter David Chandler, both of whom have been extremely hostile towards me.

Auuugh this is depressing, I just thought that Harrit was delusional. This is the second time this week I gave someone in the 911 TM the benefit of the doubt and then find out something like this (and what Oystein says below).

I've maintained a good friendship with Richard Gage and three other top 9/11 activists and am on very good terms with several others, some of whom actively support my work. That's why I say you can't generalize about 9/11 people... on either side.

Glad to hear. I skimmed one of the links you posted earlier that linked to Millette's site and it featured screen captures of a poster named TruthMakesPeace, now there's a upstanding guy or girl. Him and Jeff Hill are up there as respected 911 CTists in my book.

Millette and MVA are hardly mentioned by Jenkins. I wouldn't go as far as Chris and state that Jenkins positively "praises" them and puts her trust in them.
Which doesn't matter much when it comes to K. Ryan - in typical truther fashion, he is less interested in what people really say, and more in how what they say can be quote-mind and construed to mean whatever suits his purpose.

Chris is totally right to point out that nothing in Jenkin's complaint incriminates Millette, but I'd not bet my right hand that she would defend Millette against Ryan, if specifically asked.

I was just clarifying what I thought Mohr said when he quoted her in the post I linked. It seems like she isn't even worth talking about because if Ryan finds her views to be legit he has to agree that Millette is credible and if he doesn't agree with her on that then he can't bring her up...he also would be wise to distance himself from that crazy lady altogether.

ETA: Re Harrit, I have heard that he is already planning a retreat from their 2009 thermite paper, downplaying its importance, as if to say "even if you prove us wrong on the red-gray chips, it still was a CD and there still was thermite, because our faith is strong".

Sorry I'm not adding too much to the thread content-wise but all I can say to this is: weeeeeeeak.
 
Note on above links... we've been through them before. It's David Chandler's "explosive" debris flying out of the South Tower and the vans that came up to the Twin Towers at 3 am after the janitors left.
 
These things that Harrit points out to belong in the category "Something Vaguely Menacing Happened... " - term taken from the title of a recent post on the Screw Loose Change blog:
http://screwloosechange.blogspot.com/2012/02/something-vaguely-menacing-happened.html

White dust trails - woooooo! (Why does it have to be Al-oxide, if you handwave gypsum, and why not - just about anything else? And even if it's Al-oxide, of which there is absolutely zero proof beyond the dust being white, why does it have to come from thermite?)
Trucks deliver at night - woooooo! (I have delivery trucks coming to the small town market square every friday and tuesday at 3 in the morning at least - should I expect demolitions any time now??)

Basically, his mail to you is confirming what I wrote: He is pre-moving the goal posts in his anticipation of being proven wrong 100%.

The real test will be: Will Harrit advise Gage not to use that argument any longer that his 2009 study found high tech thermite? A photo of the red-gray chips still features atop the homepage of ae911truth. Will they remove it?
 
Note on above links... we've been through them before. It's David Chandler's "explosive" debris flying out of the South Tower and the vans that came up to the Twin Towers at 3 am after the janitors left.
Thanks, I was curious what the links were but not the least bit interested in sitting though another "truther" video.

Thanks for watching and "taking one for the team".

;)
 
Note on above links... we've been through them before. It's David Chandler's "explosive" debris flying out of the South Tower and the vans that came up to the Twin Towers at 3 am after the janitors left.

Please provide your link that "refutes" David Chandler's analysis of the debris exploding, sped up descent and change of direction.
 
Here is a brief excerpt of a response from Niels Harrit about the Millette study. I guess I'll try to slog through these links now. Since it's not a direct answer to the study (which no one has yet fully seen), it seemed better to be posted over here:


There is now more than ten independent observations that implicates
the use of thermite and/or energetic composite material.

You propably know most of them but here are the latest: All fragments
that are shot out of the towers have white, regular traces behind
them. What do you think they are? Do you think that concrete or gypsum would create traces like that? It is aluminumoxide.

Probably mostly gypsum, yes, and thats an unsupported assertion. It could as well be white flour! That at least has a track record of causing big explosions:D
 
Niels Harrit: All fragments that are shot out of the towers have white, regular traces behind them. What do you think they are? Do you think that concrete or gypsum would create traces like that? It is aluminumoxide.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i6eMq5Rit1w&feature=youtu.be

If he said that then he's implying that every part of both Towers was doused with unimaginably vast amounts of thermite.

Therefore he's barking mad or having a bit of fun. Either way .....
 
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