• Quick note - the problem with Youtube videos not embedding on the forum appears to have been fixed, thanks to ZiprHead. If you do still see problems let me know.

Origin of the paint that was found as red-gray chips - any ideas?

Re: Sunstealer's request, I second it, but I wonder if you feel it is a breach of privacy to openly publish the emails. It would be necessary to see them at some point if you are going to reference them.

As I have explained it, I'm not the owner of these mails since they have been recieved by a friend. I have just a copy.
That's why I have given only the two sentences about the DSC test, because it's a scientific information. Explanations are logical and evident for anyone who wants to understand science.

The rest of the correspondence is private. But interesting :D

I think that Gash and Tillotson can be contacted by everyone needing scientific information about their paper (particulary persons which do not believe me).
 
Last edited:
<snipped......>

Once again, for villain to hero.

If anything, this speaks very well of the integrity of the Paul Lioy et al. team, including Dr. Millette, who indeed revealed a pH in the aqueous suspension that is right in the 11.5 level of dangerousness!


Not to mention the complaint by Dr. Jenkins said that this was an industry standard protocol that was used industry-wide.

I tried to email Dr. Jenkins, however, she is no longer with the EPA as far as I could find.
 
It's worse than that: They HAVE done some follow-up work (Farrer has, and Jones and Harrit have already been bragging about it in 2009), especially TEM, but have not released any data or anything.
Off the top of my head* I remember that the TEM study showed that the rhomboidal particles in the red layer were confirmed to be Fe2O3 but the analysis of the hexagonal platelets were inconclusive.

*from memory.

However I've not seen any data regarding that additional study.
 
Last edited:
As I have explained it, I'm not the owner of these mails since they have been recieved by a friend. I have just a copy.
That's why I have given only the two sentences about the DSC test, because it's a scientific information. Explanations are logical and evident for anyone who wants to understand science.

The rest of the correspondence is private. But interesting :D

I think that Gash and Tillotson can be contacted by everyone needing scientific information about their paper (particulary persons which do not believe me).

Understood. Thanks.
 
As I have explained it, I'm not the owner of these mails since they have been recieved by a friend. I have just a copy.
That's why I have given only the two sentences about the DSC test, because it's a scientific information. Explanations are logical and evident for anyone who wants to understand science.

The rest of the correspondence is private. But interesting :D

I think that Gash and Tillotson can be contacted by everyone needing scientific information about their paper (particulary persons which do not believe me).

I have communicated with Dr. Harrit twice on this subject.

He is a man whom I respect and trust and has shown no motivation for lying about such a basic communication.

The only thing I can add is that the Tillotson communication was made by a member of Dr. Harrit's team but not by Dr. Harrit himself.

Dr. Harrit appeared to be quite prepared to do this testing in whatever environment was required.

MM
 
I have communicated with Dr. Harrit twice on this subject.

He is a man whom I respect and trust and has shown no motivation for lying about such a basic communication.

The only thing I can add is that the Tillotson communication was made by a member of Dr. Harrit's team but not by Dr. Harrit himself.

Dr. Harrit appeared to be quite prepared to do this testing in whatever environment was required.

MM

So Tillotson to "team member" to Harrit to you. Still think that is not hearsay?

By the way, Harrit is quite prepared to do the testing in whatever atmosphere was required, so;

WHY HASN'T HE *********** DONE IT?
 
Off the top of my head* I remember that the TEM study showed that the rhomboidal particles in the red layer were confirmed to be Fe2O3 but the analysis of the hexagonal platelets were inconclusive.

*from memory.
Your memory is correct. They confirmed Fe2O3 what you figured out in a day without needing TEM. They also found that the platelets contain Al. Which you also knew within a day without TEM.
Then they stopped.
Maybe they found that the Al is bound to Si and O. As you figured out within a day without TEM. And were embarrassed.

However I've not seen any data regarding that additional study.
And that's the hole point. Having data and keeping it secret is worse, at least in the truther world, than not going for data in the first place. When someone asked Harrit recently in private if the data is available, he went ballistic, but ignored the question.

Go figure ;)
 
I have communicated with Dr. Harrit twice on this subject.

He is a man whom I respect and trust and has shown no motivation for lying about such a basic communication.
Suppose you learned from Tillotson directly that he never replied to any team member of Harrit's, and did the DSC under pure nitrogen, would that change your trust in Harrit or his his fellows?

The only thing I can add is that the Tillotson communication was made by a member of Dr. Harrit's team but not by Dr. Harrit himself.
Correct. Farrer is said to have telephoned Tillotson. Perhaps Farrer lied about it.

Dr. Harrit appeared to be quite prepared to do this testing in whatever environment was required.
Cheap talk, as it wasn't Harrit who did the DSC test. It was Farrer.
 
And now for something "completely different", i.e. again: what I can expect as results of the study:

If I remember correctly, Chris mentioned several weeks ago that Jim Millette "is overwhelmed with the amount of data" or something like this.

Personally, I have tended to confine my reasoning just to red primers used in WTC1 and WTC2, since one of the identical Bentham chips (a) to (d) was found in the dust collected before WTC7 collapse.
But, in any other dust sample we can expect even chips of red primers (and other red paints) from WTC7 and also from other WTC buildings (and perhaps even some from other sources).
BasqueArch mentioned about 8 various steel primers probably used just in Twins themselves. Primers applied in other buildings were probably different, so expecting maybe even tens of various red chips in the dust is not unrealistic.

From this point of view (from my point view:cool:), Jim Millette should focus his study to dust samples collected before WTC7 collapse (if any available in his "stock"). But, Jim Millette has a broader task, so we can expect quite a complex set of results, as regards red chips found and investigated (I think).
 
Last edited:
And now for something "completely different", i.e. again: what I can expect as results of the study:
Let's see...

Personally, I have tended to confine my reasoning just to red primers used in WTC1 and WTC2, since one of the identical Bentham chips (a) to (d) was found in the dust collected before WTC7 collapse.
But, in any other dust sample we can expect even chips of red primers (and other red paints) from WTC7 and also from other WTC buildings (and perhaps even some from other sources).
We concentrated on a-d because those were the only chips we had with enough data to work with, and also the only type of chip of which there was more than one specimen known to us. And because the MEK chip was already identified as Tnemec

BasqueArch mentioned about 8 various steel primers probably used just in Twins themselves. Primers applied in other buildings were probably different, so expecting maybe even tens of various red chips in the dust is not unrealistic.
No, I think that's a misunderstanding. BasqueArch mentioned about 8 various steel manufacturers (9, to be exact). Among these, 2 known primers were used: Two companies were required to paint Tnemec on the perimeter columns from 4th to 107th floor, and the other is LaClede. Two more companies supplied perimeter columns above the 107th and below the 4th floor - it seems reasonable to assume that they, too were required to use Tnemec.
One of the latter two also did the hat truss and all rolled beams in the core. Two more companies did the core box columns. We don't know if they had a primer spec . Finally, two more companies did basement floors and "grillages". Whatever primer they used probably didn't make it into the dust in vast amounts.
So, in addition to Tnemec and LaClede, I'd expect at most 3 more other primers, or perhaps only 1, or even 0.

From this point of view (from my point view:cool:), Jim Millette should focus his study to dust samples collected before WTC7 collapse (if any available in his "stock").
Highly unlikely. The samples collected for the Lioy study were collected a few days after 9/11.

But, Jim Millette has a broader task, so we can expect quite a complex set of results, as regards red chips found and investigated (I think).
I am not even sure that he is even tasked with analysing red-gray chips :o His original task is to answer the question "is there thermite in the dust?"
There is no good reason for starters to focus on bi-layered chips with a bright red layer. Thermite is a mix of red iron oxide and silvery-gray aluminium oxide - it would probably not even be bright red, but rather dull red.

Jim wrote that he will not screen a large amount of particles, but look for certain clues, look at individual particles, and procede according to what he happens to find. Remember he's a forensic scientist with a lot of experience with solving riddles hidden in bags of mixed stuff. I have no clear idea what his results will look like.
 
Let's see...


We concentrated on a-d because those were the only chips we had with enough data to work with, and also the only type of chip of which there was more than one specimen known to us. And because the MEK chip was already identified as Tnemec.

Of course:cool:


No, I think that's a misunderstanding. BasqueArch mentioned about 8 various steel manufacturers (9, to be exact). Among these, 2 known primers were used: Two companies were required to paint Tnemec on the perimeter columns from 4th to 107th floor, and the other is LaClede. Two more companies supplied perimeter columns above the 107th and below the 4th floor - it seems reasonable to assume that they, too were required to use Tnemec.
One of the latter two also did the hat truss and all rolled beams in the core. Two more companies did the core box columns. We don't know if they had a primer spec . Finally, two more companies did basement floors and "grillages". Whatever primer they used probably didn't make it into the dust in vast amounts.
So, in addition to Tnemec and LaClede, I'd expect at most 3 more other primers, or perhaps only 1, or even 0.

I tried now to consider the most pesimistic "scenario" (as regards the number of various primers), since we cannot be sure in some respects. I also wrote during last fall to Lefty that there were many steel manufacturers but only few "paint shops" (as for Twins). Still, we have to consider (among others) e.g. some red primers used in WTC7 (unknown).

I am not even sure that he is even tasked with analysing red-gray chips :o His original task is to answer the question "is there thermite in the dust?"
There is no good reason for starters to focus on bi-layered chips with a bright red layer. Thermite is a mix of red iron oxide and silvery-gray aluminium oxide (must be deleted, I.K.:blush:)- it would probably not even be bright red, but rather dull red.

Jim wrote that he will not screen a large amount of particles, but look for certain clues, look at individual particles, and procede according to what he happens to find. Remember he's a forensic scientist with a lot of experience with solving riddles hidden in bags of mixed stuff. I have no clear idea what his results will look like.

Well, we at least know that collecting the red-gray chips was one of the first things Jim did with the dust.:cool: Everything else is a kind of secret so far even for us, who "payed" for this research:cool:
 
Re: When can we have the results from Millette.
He should take all the time he needs until he's satisfied with his report.
 
Not to mention the complaint by Dr. Jenkins said that this was an industry standard protocol that was used industry-wide.

I tried to email Dr. Jenkins, however, she is no longer with the EPA as far as I could find.

Correct me if I am off base on this but doesn't Jenkin's repeated complaint that the samples were put in solution prior to ph testing completely destroy any authority and expertise she might claim and thus make her critique not worth the paper its written on?
 
Update on our LaClede paper, tentatively titled

Red-gray chips in the dust of the World Trade Center
collapses: A new interpretation

Ivan Kminek, who will feature as co-author, is currently reviewing the last draft version (enigmatically numbered "v.0.64") before I send it out to a group of other reviewers. It's currently 34 pages long, with 43 footnotes, 18 figures, 26 referenced documents, and the following colclusion:

In summary, we conclude that the red-gray chips (a)-(d) described by Harrit e.al. are not thermitic. They are LaClede Standard Primer (red layer, with iron oxide, aluminium silicate and strontium chromate pigments) on oxidized structural steel.
 
Update on our LaClede paper, tentatively titled

Red-gray chips in the dust of the World Trade Center
collapses: A new interpretation

Ivan Kminek, who will feature as co-author, is currently reviewing the last draft version (enigmatically numbered "v.0.64") before I send it out to a group of other reviewers. It's currently 34 pages long, with 43 footnotes, 18 figures, 26 referenced documents, and the following colclusion:

In summary, we conclude that the red-gray chips (a)-(d) described by Harrit e.al. are not thermitic. They are LaClede Standard Primer (red layer, with iron oxide, aluminium silicate and strontium chromate pigments) on oxidized structural steel.

34 pages :eek:

Do you speak also about Tnemek primer paint?
 
Correct me if I am off base on this but doesn't Jenkin's repeated complaint that the samples were put in solution prior to ph testing completely destroy any authority and expertise she might claim and thus make her critique not worth the paper its written on?
This may be a mistake. We need to heck again because Jenkins's complaint may have been the the aqueous solution was left in the fridge too long, thus reducing its pH... NOT that it was liquified.
 
:D
Pages 5-16 really discuss the evidence, comparing predictions from out theory with Harrit's data
Pages 16-20 are discussion
Appendix A (21-23) categorizes the various types of chips and residues in Harrit e.al.
Appendix B (24-27) presents what we know about structural steels and their primers from NIST
Appendix C (28-30) is references - I have categorized them, that inflates this section somewhat
Appendix D (31-34) is additional (large) images that I felt would be disruptive in the presentation of evidence.


Do you speak also about Tnemek primer paint?
Yes, briefly, in Appendix A and B
 

Back
Top Bottom