Poor America - BBC Panorama Documentary

[brodski]

that would be the type of "ethnic" which doesn't necessarily include a genetic component or have anything to do with place of birth or upbringing then. A purely cultural ethnic...isn't really ethnic at all IMO. It's just racism. The word ethnic belongs in the dustbin IMO.

You seem to be confused and angry about something or other.

 

[Bad Lieutenant]

You seem to be confused and angry about something or other.

Nope..

 

[AlaskaBushPilot]

The last time I bothered to count up the population of those "richer countries" I came up with America being 99.7th percentile. Not very many folks living better than us in San Merino, Monaco, Qatar..... 6 1/5 Billion living worse of in China, India, all of Africa, much of Europe....

When people use logical fallacies like this, they rarely state their argument completely because it sounds so stupid when they do. But that is why nobody publishes or uses the Casebro (TM) measure of wealth.


Obviously you don't understand why one has to work with per capita (per person) terms when comparing countries. Otherwise you have China rocketing from 90th place to the "second richest" country in the world simply because they have a lot of (poor) people.

If you don't understand something so basic, it can't be explained to you.

 

[brodski]

Being accused of bigotry in a round about/doesn't violate the forum rules kinda way can have that effect on a a person.

When that happens let me know and ill get you a nice cup of tea and a hobnob to make you feel better.

 

[Smackety]

Sometimes, Section 8 has one big disqualifier, previous problem while in Sec 8 housing. So say you are 19 with a child and your abusive boyfriend deals drugs and gets busted. No more Sec 8. and usually a long time ban from Sec. 8.

Here in AZ it is effectively a lifetime ban if you lose Section 8 because the govt wants the cost of the subsidy paid prior to being evicted paid back before you can requalify. There are other forms of subsidized housing, with similar rules. The waiting lists for subsidized housing are many years long, it is basically not available at all if you don't have dependent children or a disability. A good portion of single, younger to middle aged people have no real housing option. Even the homeless shelters only allow 4 days per month. Obviously, getting a job while living under a bridge is excessively difficult. there are definitely "Shanty-towns" but the residents get arrested constantly, so there are no permanent structures.

 

[Bad Lieutenant]

When that happens let me know and ill get you a nice cup of tea and a hobnob to make you feel better.

I *********** hate hobnobs!!

No, but seriously, I think I was annoyed at my...erm...anti-gypsy/pikey feelings. Shameful really.

 

[WildCat]

They were in the documentary - for people who can't afford bricks and mortar. It looked a bit like this:

There's a video of another example here I found:

http://abcnews.go.com/US/jersey-tent-city-houses-70-homeless-people-draw/story?id=14272847

You acknowledge there are groups of people live under bridges though; so what's the real difference?

There's no reason those people wouldn't qualify for housing assistance. If they prefer to live in a tent in the woods there's nothing the state can do to force them into a housing program.

It looks like the people in the ABC story have mental issues as well. Couldn't get along with relatives, have lots of pets. I doubt there's many rent-subsidized or government housing that would allow them to keep that menagerie, probably why they choose to live in a tent in the woods.

 

[Bad Lieutenant]

i think gipsy is more eastern european origin rather than irish

They're mostly catholics...mostly. Maybe that's why I hate them ...and maybe I'm jealous of them for being free from the rat race.

 

[WildCat]

Sometimes, Section 8 has one big disqualifier, previous problem while in Sec 8 housing. So say you are 19 with a child and your abusive boyfriend deals drugs and gets busted. No more Sec 8. and usually a long time ban from Sec. 8.

So don't have an abusive boyfriend that deals drugs from your Sec. 8 housing.

 

[Bad Lieutenant]

There's no reason those people wouldn't qualify for housing assistance. If they prefer to live in a tent in the woods there's nothing the state can do to force them into a housing program.

The people interviewed say they don't want to live there but have no other choice. You're putting comfortable words and motives where none appear to exist.

I mean, you're saying they choose to live like that? When they themselves (and common sense) says the opposite?

 

[WildCat]

The people interviewed say they don't want to live there but have no other choice. You're putting comfortable words and motives where none appear to exist.

I mean, you're saying they choose to live like that? When they themselves (and common sense) says the opposite?

Their choice is they wanted to live with their birds and cats and who knows what else. Rather than give them up and live in a proper apartment they choose to live in a tent in the woods. And I have no doubt this couple has other issues as well, how else to explain how they wore out their welcomes with family members they used to live with? It would have to be pretty bad before I'd send my parents to live in a tent in the woods.

 

[Smackety]

Their choice is they wanted to live with their birds and cats and who knows what else. Rather than give them up and live in a proper apartment they choose to live in a tent in the woods. And I have no doubt this couple has other issues as well, how else to explain how they wore out their welcomes with family members they used to live with? It would have to be pretty bad before I'd send my parents to live in a tent in the woods.

Personally, I have not seen a lot of pets in homeless camps, mostly stray dogs, though every city seems to have at least one "Bird Man" or similar. A lot of residents have addictions, mental illnesses, a significant criminal history, or are the wrong demographic to receive housing benefits. Saying that they had an apartment as a choice is not something I would agree with. Even if they were not addicted, mentally ill, or criminal they would still be single, not-old, not-disabled adults with no children and they would still not be able to get an subsidized apartment. You don't get free rent just because you don't work.

ETA: to make it make sense

 

[Halfcentaur]

Your length of unemployment depends on how long you worked at your last job. I was literally 3 days short of three years from my job, and as a result after a year I was not permitted to file for further unemployment benefits. I was told if I could work another 3 days I'd be approved.

 

[Information Analyst]

Jobseekers allowance doesn't pay out automatically, and the contribution-based benefit stops after 6 months. The income benefit is massively means tested and requirements for eligibility get more onerous as time goes on.

I took voluntary redundancy at the end of March last year, but because I got a good package (one month's salary for each of the 22 years I worked in the NHS, the first £30,000 being tax free) and because I wanted to concentrate on writing my book (during which time I declared myself self-employers and paid voluntary National Insurance contributions (which I haven't actually , I deferred claiming benefits until the start of this year. As this is income-based Jobseeker's Allowance only (because my wife works), it's £67.50 a week, paid fortnightly.

I have to go in to the Job Centre Plus every two weeks (luckily a ten minute walk away!) to "sign-on," and to discuss with my advisor what steps I've been taking to find work. I'm supposed to access the JCP website for vacancies once a week (or use the terminals on-site), check local newspapers and job websites, and have three "contacts" with potential employers each week. A "contact" can be requesting an application form, or actually submitting one.

After six months on IB JSA (which I hopefully won't be!), it's no longer payable, but I can continue to sign-on purely to continue getting NI credits

 

[Information Analyst]

I was thinking of pikeys... I thought you couldn't say 'gypsy' any more? ;-}

"Pikey" is the insult. "Gypsy" is fine as long as it means actual Romany Gypsies. In addition there are "Irish Travelers."

 

[Tsukasa Buddha]

Here are the homeless services in Illinois:

Services

• Access to Recovery provides recovery home services to clients in the National Guard that are in recovery from alcohol and/or other drugs.
• Emergency Food & Shelter gives immediate and comprehensive shelter services to homeless persons and persons at risk of becoming homeless.
• Homeless Prevention - stabilizes individuals and families in their existing homes, shorten the amount of time that individuals and families stay in shelters and assist individuals and families with securing affordable housing.
• Homeless Youth provides a place to live and job services for youth who are 14 to 20 years of age that meet specific criteria.
• In-Home Supports - provides services and supports that will help people with developmental disabilities live more independently in their home.
• Residential Living Arrangements - provides people with developmental disabilities the care and services needed in homes with staff available 24 hours per day.
• Supportive Housing - provides supportive services coupled with housing to enable formerly homeless individuals and families, or those in danger of becoming homeless, who live in private housing to maintain their residence in the community.

Linky.

As I said before there are many people who are crashing with friends or relatives, who are not exactly homeless, but probably will be. The big shelter in my area is actually a bunch of "emergency" shelters at churches, but again only during the winter season. There are a lot of public-charity co-operations, especially in this area. These often get overcrowded, and in the video you heard that when that happened people were referred to tents.

 

[joolz]

We did?! I must have missed that referendum...or are you saying that if the English Democrats had won the general election there'd be an English government? Because we're basically in a two party system here so that wasn't really an option..

No, not connected to the English democrats, they seem to be reviving the idea now though.

Are you in the south? They didn't hold a referendum there, presumably because the north of England voted 'no'. If any part of England could have been expected to vote 'yes' for their own regional government I think it would have been 'the north' as they feel almost as alienated from Westminster as the Scots.

I presume the UK government didn't do further ballots as they expected that the result would have been the same. The northern rejection was resounding, well over two thirds said no IIRC. There were a lot of opinion polls all over England at that time that indicated the same thing. It's a shame that the voters couldn't envision the autonomy it could bring.

I think people in Scotland generally wanted you to have assemblies/governments, but a lot of people in England seem to think that the Westminster govt is the English govt and they felt no need for another layer of officialdom (as they saw it). As they have that false belief, they get upset as they feel that Scots both have their own national parliament and representatives in the 'English' government, which is not the case as you know.

I'd be tempted, but Scotland's basically a capitalist free-market hellhole just like the rest of the UK. I'm radical like that...I want a planned economy. I might like it in Cuba I reckon, but I'm not the splitting type...yet.

I agree we are not a socialist utopia, but I certainly wouldn't call us a 'capitalist free-market hellhole' I think a mixed economy is more stable and I hope we have it about right - enough socialism to care about people and enough freedom to allow free spirit in business.

 

[joolz]

I might like it in Cuba I reckon, but I'm not the splitting type...yet.

PS - did you hear that they are now allowing limited free enterprise in Cuba? So you may not like it soon

There was an interesting piece on Radio 4 about how they are having to train up lots of accountants in the mysteries of income tax as it's the first time in decades that Cuba has had the need to collect income tax. Entrepreneurs must get a license to work for themselves, but people interviewed said they enjoy the freedom of it.

And naturally, one of the accountants said he needs to find ways to help people avoid paying the new tax as it's too high!

Might still be on BBC iPlayer.

 

[Nosi]

"Breaking the system"? I hardly think so. It's subsidies given to the biggest corporations, rich farmers and the Republics' refusal to increase the taxes on millionaires for political gain that is breaking the system.

 

[crimresearch]

"Pikey" is the insult. "Gypsy" is fine as long as it means actual Romany Gypsies. In addition there are "Irish Travelers."

Ahh... in the US the 'Gypsies' are multi-families that live in various parts of the country (usually large houses), and make nomadic shoplifting excursions.
They identify themselves as gypsies/roam/egyptian, but there has been some PC noise about any use of the word (gypsy moths) being offensive to someone.

They seem to be of a different ethnicity from the handful of Irish Travellers in the US, but it is hard to verify who is who, if for no other reason than their keeping a very low profile.

I didn't know the pikeys were actually Roma, but had heard of some pretty harsh attitudes toward both of them across the Atlantic.