Poor America - BBC Panorama Documentary

[Bad Lieutenant]

The biggest contributor to the building of the modern welfare state was Otto von Bismarck, who introduced universal health care on a grand scale in Germany. The Iron Chancellor has been called many things over the years, but never a socialist.

To most of the electorate, welfare means socialism which also means communism. If enough people attribute a meaning to a word then that becomes the word's meaning more or less. I used to think the liberal democrats were a left of centre party, but now I realise you cant have liberalism without allowing free market capitalism, which is a right wing ideology...and yet democracy is opposed to that. Political labels never seem to do what they say on the tin. I'd find it very difficult to put a label on Mr Von Bismarck I bet.

Welfare state doesn't have to mean socialism. Most western nations are welfare states, but not all of them are socialist. It's sort of a misconception that the government providing benefits to their people = socialism. In that case, defense, road building, schools, etc, are socialist, despite these things having been provided by governments long before the ideology of socialism saw the light of day.

Very true....words like socialism, capitalism and even communism in fact have very different meanings to most people; and according to the textbook definitions none/all of those systems currently prevail in most countries to a greater or lesser extent.

One of the problems of the poverty in the USA, according to the teachers interviewed in the documentary, is that a lot of kids can't concentrate on their schoolwork because they don't know where they're going to spend the night/they're hungry/they haven't got any shoes that fit; and that effectively removes them from the future workforce which restricts the supply of labour - that would mean the free market capitalists should support their being looked after in order to maintain competition in the labour markets.

 

[Francesca R]

And there's no homeless people in the UK?

http://www.communities.gov.uk/publications/corporate/statistics/homelessnessq22011

 

[baron]

And there's no homeless people in the UK?

From what I've seen there is a subtle difference between the US homeless, as described by this and other documentaries, and those of the UK. In the US the homeless population seems to comprise a significant proportion of families who have simply fallen on hard times and have nowhere to go but the streets. That doesn't happen in the UK, in fact the opposite is often the case and money and housing is thrown at such people making them better off than if they'd been working. The homeless in the UK appear to be comprised almost solely of runaways, drunks, the mentally ill and others who could be classed as outside of society (rightly or wrongly). And most of these would get some form of shelter if they wanted it. I've never heard of a family in the UK living on the streets due to money or employment issues.

 

[Bad Lieutenant]

And there's no homeless people in the UK?

There're no shanti towns / gutter communities in the UK. AFAIK.

 

[WildCat]

From what I've seen there is a subtle difference between the US homeless, as described by this and other documentaries, and those of the UK. In the US the homeless population seems to comprise a significant proportion of families who have simply fallen on hard times and have nowhere to go but the streets.

Families are not thrown out on the streets, they can get housing assistance. The people you see living on the streets are primarily drug/alcohol addicts or the mentally ill. Then you have the odd tent city under a bridge somewhere occupied mostly by registered sex offenders who can't live anywhere else.

 

[WildCat]

There're no shanti towns / gutter communities in the UK. AFAIK.

What shantytowns are you talking about in the US?

 

[often mrunderstood]

Welfare benefit eligibility is means tested almost everywhere, including the US. (Probably everywhere)

But testing it against what you buy (rather than what your income/assets are) which what you advocate there, is illiberal social engineering at its worst, IMO. About as repellent as disqualifying non church-goers from income support.

He, nor I, are advocating such means testing. It's called basic respect for your fellow humans who are trying to give you a hand. I wouldn't pay for a smart phone while asking another to pay my bills or feed my family. Ever! I am one of those fools who thinks it is reasonable to expect the same in return.

By the way, their assets are in their wallet. har har

It is a really stupid problem for America to have. There is free food everywhere, but you would have to humble yourself a bit get it or humbly request that another break the law.

Is it wrong for me to want to disqualify church goers themselves? Seems like a problem a good hard praying could solve.

 

[Bad Lieutenant]

What shantytowns are you talking about in the US?

They were in the documentary - for people who can't afford bricks and mortar. It looked a bit like this:

There's a video of another example here I found:

http://abcnews.go.com/US/jersey-tent-city-houses-70-homeless-people-draw/story?id=14272847

You acknowledge there are groups of people live under bridges though; so what's the real difference?

 

[crimresearch]

There're no shanti towns / gutter communities in the UK. AFAIK.

I thought they put wheels on them??

 

[crimresearch]

And:

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/03/26/us/26tents.html

 

[Bad Lieutenant]

I thought they put wheels on them??

Trailor park trash? We call them gypsies over here, and their "unique cultural" is protected by the European court of something or other.

 

[crimresearch]

Trailor park trash? We call them gypsies over here, and their "unique cultural" is protected by the European court of something or other.

I was thinking of pikeys... I thought you couldn't say 'gypsy' any more? ;-}

 

[ginjawarrior]

I was thinking of pikeys... I thought you couldn't say 'gypsy' any more? ;-}

i wouldn't call em pikeys to their faces either its "travelers"

they're in their caravans by choice most councils would e more than happy to get them into houses/ the system

that and they're not allowed build houses in the greenbelts in any random feild they buy

 

[brodski]

I was thinking of pikeys... I thought you couldn't say 'gypsy' any more? ;-}

You can say gypsie when talking about actual gypsies (you can say it any time you like but in some context you risk sounding like a bigot).

 

[Bad Lieutenant]

You can say gypsie when talking about actual gypsies (you can say it any time you like but in some context you risk sounding like a bigot).

Do real gypsies own a certificate or something? Or do you qualify as long as you follow traditional gentleman's rules when settling a dispute with an honourable (illegal) bout of bare knuckle boxing, or a straightener, as it's better known

.....derail...

 

[brodski]

Do real gypsies own a certificate or something? Or do you qualify as long as you follow traditional gentleman's rules when settling a dispute with an honourable (illegal) bout of bare knuckle boxing, or a straightener, as it's better known

.....derail...

No they are self identifed members of a specific ethnic group.

 

[ginjawarrior]

i think gipsy is more eastern european origin rather than irish

 

[Dancing David]

In my experience, it's the same in the USA. Problem is, their are too many people that lack even an inkling of ambition and expect everything for nothing. It's breaking the system for those who truly need it.

Not really, there are only three people kinds of people who qualify for benefits since TANF reform. The disabled, the elderly and children, that is really it. Adults who are parents of children only qualify for a limited time, usually seven years since 'welfare reform'.

If you aren't a child or a disabled individual you won't get squat , unless you have a child and live in poverty, then you get benefits about seven years. Then you don't get squat.

 

[Dancing David]

Families are not thrown out on the streets, they can get housing assistance.

Sometimes, Section 8 has one big disqualifier, previous problem while in Sec 8 housing. So say you are 19 with a child and your abusive boyfriend deals drugs and gets busted. No more Sec 8. and usually a long time ban from Sec. 8.

 

[Bad Lieutenant]

No they are self identifed members of a specific ethnic group.

that would be the type of "ethnic" which doesn't necessarily include a genetic component or have anything to do with place of birth or upbringing then. A purely cultural ethnic...isn't really ethnic at all IMO. It's just racism. The word ethnic belongs in the dustbin IMO.