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zen

nowornever said:
Q: If there wasn?t Buddhism, what religion would you practice?
MJSN: You already understand.
Q: No, I?m asking you.
MJSN: The floor is yellow.
Q: Thank you for your teaching. Good religion.
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During a lecture, Whit had drawn on the board a diagram of the degrees of codimensionality. Zalesky raised his hand and said, "That diagram does not describe codimensionality.".
"Why not?" asked Richards.
"Because it is drawn with yellow chalk," was Zalesky's response.
At that point, Whitman let Zalesky lead the rest of the lecture.
 
nowornever said:
Out of that, compassion is passion for eerybody, naturally, and you can save all beings from suffering.
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If this is possible, why hasn't it been done? If it hasn't been done, how do you know it's possible?
 
Peterson said:
Not the stuff I've been reading lately. Granted, I'm coming at it from a Christian perspective but the one thing everyone says is that there is no method. You can't really do anything to become a mystic, it's more about letting go. Another is to avoid spiritual pride. If you are bragging about your "progress", your ego is firmly in place and everything you have done has been to satisfy your self which is pretty much the opposite of what mysticism is about (imo)
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I could argue that it's not what mysticism SHOULD BE about, if it's internally consistent. However, having done some research into Christian mysticism myself (specifically monasticism and asceticism), I can assure you that the practice was alive and well in the Middle Ages, at least. Every man must have his master, just as the Lord is Lord of all. Hermits were better than monks, until they weren't; abbots were above the normal monks, and the guys who ran individual day-to-day activities were between the abbot and the monks. Priests are above the lay clergy, bishops above that, archbishops above that, the pope above all. etc.

nowornever said:
Philosophy has nothing to do withh living.
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Disagree entirely. Philosophy, properly, is all about living. It's about how we interact with the world (ethics), how we process information (epistemology), our fundamental view of the world and our place in it (metaphysics), what we find beautiful (aesthetics), etc. We all need some rudimentary philosophy just to get through the day. "Philosophy" that has nothing to do with life has nothing to do with reality, and therefore is by definition fiction.
 
nowornever said:
Out of that, compassion is passion for eerybody, naturally, and you can save all beings from suffering.
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There's a parasitic crustacean that eats the tongue of a fish, then acts as a replacement. Now, I've never had my tongue eaten (a few other parts gnawed on, but not that one), but I can imagine it's uncomfortable. However, not allowing this to happen would cause the crustacean to die, which is more or less the ultimate suffering. How does compassion for everybody prevent suffering?

Cats and dogs are carnivores. They cannot survive any other way than by killing other animals and consuming them. Considering their weapons are claws and teeth, the killing is quite brutal--many large cats suffocate their prey, for example, and when dogs take down larger prey bones can be broken and you can hear the prey screaming in pain. Quite heart-wrenching, even for those of us who prefer predators to herbivores. The alternative is for the dogs and cats to slowly starve to death, because while they each eat minor amounts of vegetation they cannot in any way survive on it. How does compassion for everybody prevent suffering?

We have evidence from multiple fields that decreases in predation cause horrifying effects on prey populations. Diseases become rampent, starvation becomes common, the animals fight one another and often die brutal deaths, etc. In contrast, if you allow a certain (relatively high, to our minds) number of predators into the mix, the prey quite quickly become healthier, there's less competition, and you get much more verdent wilderness (because the prey aren't eating anything they can choak down to fend off starvation). How does compassion for everybody prevent suffering? After all, our options appear to be allowing some animals to die horrifyingly violent deaths, or allowing all of them to die long, agonizing deaths from starvation or disease.

Soundbites like the above quote seem good, until you actually study biology. Then it becomes obvious that whoever came up with that nonsense didn't know what they were talkign about.
 
Piscivore said:
These aren't koans. They're attempts to imitate the form of a koan by someone who does not understand the thinking behind a koan. Like a fake mechanic tapping an engine block with a wrench and moving wires around randomly.
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Somehow I'm not surprised. I doubt my questions will be answered, even if my questions could be considered suitably modified.
 
Dinwar said:
Soundbites like the above quote seem good, until you actually study biology. Then it becomes obvious that whoever came up with that nonsense didn't know what they were talkign about.
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He doesn't. Because the goal in Buddhism (including Zen) regarding "suffering" isn't some magical, hippie nonsense about "save[ing] all beings" from it - especially others - but changing one's reactions to and relationship with suffering.

There is a Taoist story of an old farmer who had worked his crops for many years. One day his horse ran away. Upon hearing the news, his neighbors came to visit. "Such bad luck," they said sympathetically.

"May be," the farmer replied.

The next morning the horse returned, bringing with it three other wild horses. "How wonderful," the neighbors exclaimed.

"May be," replied the old man.

The following day, his son tried to ride one of the untamed horses, was thrown, and broke his leg. The neighbors again came to offer their sympathy on his misfortune.

"May be," answered the farmer.

The day after, military officials came to the village to draft young men into the army. Seeing that the son's leg was broken, they passed him by. The neighbors congratulated the farmer on how well things had turned out.

"May be," said the farmer.
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Two traveling monks reached a river where they met a young woman. Wary of the current, she asked if they could carry her across. One of the monks hesitated, but the other quickly picked her up onto his shoulders, transported her across the water, and put her down on the other bank. She thanked him and departed.

As the monks continued on their way, the one was brooding and preoccupied. Unable to hold his silence, he spoke out.

"Brother, our spiritual training teaches us to avoid any contact with women, but you picked that one up on your shoulders and carried her!"

"Brother," the second monk replied,
"I set her down on the other side, why are you are still carrying her?"
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What it is we are ater?

Ko Bong was the greatest zen master in Korea in his time. He gave transmission only to Seung Sahn. He taught only laymen and nuns as he said that monks did not practise enough.

The Norseman-I care for you. Do you understand that?

phunk-how to save all beings rom suffering? What are you doing now? JUST DO IT!
 
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nowornever said:
Ko Bong was the greatest zen master in Korea in his time. He gave transmission only to Seung Sahn. He taught only laymen and nuns as he said that manks did not practise enough.
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And genital herpes spread in turn from the laymen and nuns to the rest of the population, and they had Bong and Sahn to thank for their woes.

nowornever - You understand nothing of the zen buddhism that I've been exposed to. You do not understand what koans are or the purpose they are meant to serve.

Your 'zen' reminds me of scientology, which is loathsome, hollow, and a scam.

How many points are you getting for spewing nonsense on this forum?
 
phunk-how to save all beings rom suffering? What are you doing now? JUST DO IT!
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Can't do the impossible. I've presented specific examples. Piscivore has provided one explination for how zen gets around this issue (basically by saying that either nothing matters, or that rules don't apply because you can just drop any violations on the bank as it were), but you've yet to provide any semblance of a discussion, even an irrational discussion, for how to go about dealing with the issues I raised. Can we conclude that you're incapable of dealing with them?
 
You're almost done. But I have a few questions for you." He proceeded to ask Seung Sahn the most difficult of the seventeen-hundred traditional Zen kong-ans. Seung Sahn answered without hindrance.

Then Ko Bong said, "All right, one last question. The mouse eats cat-food, but the cat-bowl is broken. What does this mean?"

Seung Sahn said, "The sky is blue, the grass is green."

Ko Bong shook his head and said, "No."

Seung Sahn was taken aback. He had never missed a Zen question before. His face began to grow red as he gave one "like this" answer after another. Ko Bong kept shaking his head. Finally Seung Sahn exploded with anger and frustration. "Three Zen Masters have given me inga! Why do you say I'm wrong?!"

Ko Bong said, "What does it mean? Tell me."

For the next fifty minutes, Ko Bong and Soen-sa sat facing each other, hunched like two tomcats. The silence was electric. Then, all of a sudden, Seung Sahn had the answer. It was "just like this."

When Ko Bong heard it, his eyes grew moist and his face filled with joy. He embraced Seung Sahn and said, "You are the flower; I am the bee."

On January 25, 1949, Seung Sahn received from Ko Bong the Transmission of Dharma, thus becoming the Seventy-Eighth Patriarch in this line of succession. It was the only Transmission that Ko Bong ever gave.

After the ceremony, Ko Bong said to Seung Sahn, "For the next three years you must keep silent. You are a free man. We will meet again in five hundred years."

Seung Sahn was now a Zen Master. He was twenty-two years old.
 
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nowornever said:
You're almost done. But I have a few questions for you." He proceeded to ask Seung Sahn the most difficult of the seventeen-hundred traditional Zen kong-ans. Seung Sahn answered without hindrance.

Then Ko Bong said, "All right, one last question. The mouse eats cat-food, but the cat-bowl is broken. What does this mean?"

Seung Sahn said, "The sky is blue, the grass is green."

Ko Bong shook his head and said, "No."

Seung Sahn was taken aback. He had never missed a Zen question before. His face began to grow red as he gave one "like this" answer after another. Ko Bong kept shaking his head. Finally Seung Sahn exploded with anger and frustration. "Three Zen Masters have given me inga! Why do you say I'm wrong?!"

Ko Bong said, "What does it mean? Tell me."

For the next fifty minutes, Ko Bong and Soen-sa sat facing each other, hunched like two tomcats. The silence was electric. Then, all of a sudden, Seung Sahn had the answer. It was "just like this."

When Ko Bong heard it, his eyes grew moist and his face filled with joy. He embraced Seung Sahn and said, "You are the flower; I am the bee."

On January 25, 1949, Seung Sahn received from Ko Bong the Transmission of Dharma, thus becoming the Seventy-Eighth Patriarch in this line of succession. It was the only Transmission that Ko Bong ever gave.

After the ceremony, Ko Bong said to Seung Sahn, "For the next three years you must keep silent. You are a free man. We will meet again in five hundred years."

Seung Sahn was now a Zen Master. He was twenty-two years old.
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A serious young man found the conflicts of mid 20th Century America confusing. He went to many people seeking a way of resolving within himself the discords that troubled him, but he remained troubled.

One night in a coffee house, a self-ordained Zen Master said to him, "go to the dilapidated mansion you will find at this address which I have written down for you. Do not speak to those who live there; you must remain silent until the moon rises tomorrow night. Go to the large room on the right of the main hallway, sit in the lotus position on top of the rubble in the northeast corner, face the corner, and meditate."

He did just as the Zen Master instructed. His meditation was frequently interrupted by worries. He worried whether or not the rest of the plumbing fixtures would fall from the second floor bathroom to join the pipes and other trash he was sitting on. He worried how would he know when the moon rose on the next night. He worried about what the people who walked through the room said about him.

His worrying and meditation were disturbed when, as if in a test of his faith, ordure fell from the second floor onto him. At that time two people walked into the room. The first asked the second who the man was sitting there was. The second replied "Some say he is a holy man. Others say he is a ****head."

Hearing this, the man was enlightened.
 
One day Mal-2 asked the messenger spirit Saint Gulik to approach the Goddess and request Her presence for some desperate advice. Shortly afterwards the radio came on by itself, and an ethereal female Voice said YES?

"O! Eris! Blessed Mother of Man! Queen of Chaos! Daughter of Discord! Concubine of Confusion! O! Exquisite Lady, I beseech You to lift a heavy burden from my heart!"

WHAT BOTHERS YOU, MAL? YOU DON'T SOUND WELL.

"I am filled with fear and tormented with terrible visions of pain. Everywhere people are hurting one another, the planet is rampant with injustices, whole societies plunder groups of their own people, mothers imprison sons, children perish while brothers war. O, woe."

WHAT IS THE MATTER WITH THAT, IF IT IS WHAT YOU WANT TO DO?

"But nobody wants it! Everybody hates it."

OH. WELL, THEN STOP.

At which moment She turned herself into an aspirin commercial and left The Polyfather stranded alone with his species.
 
"There is really nothing you must be,
And there is nothing you must do.
There is really nothing you must have,
And there is nothing you must know.
There is really nothing you must become.

However, it helps to know that fire burns,
and, when it rains, the earth gets wet."
 
"[There is stress] 'From worrying about tourists burning down this firetrap of a temple. From worrying about trying to get enough funding from businessmen to keep it in repair. From arguing with my wife and children, who are not as holy' – he smiled – 'as I am. And from despairing over the quality of the lazy young fools who want to be priests nowadays. Sometimes I think I would like to get a little place in Hawaii and just play golf for the rest of my life.'

The Zen master continued, 'It was this way before I was enlightened, you know. And now it is the same after enlightenment.'" - It Was On Fire When I Lay Down On It - Robert Fulgham​
 
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