A first-hand account of tonight's demonstration in Athens

[MatildaGage]

Stay safe.

*shudder*

 

[mortimer]

The government wasn't elected

Can you or someone else explain to me how the government wasn't elected? From a quick investigoogle, it appears that Parliament elects the President, and the Parliament was elected by the people. This, on the surface to an American not well versed in Greek politics, seems to be the norm in Parliamentary systems (with the President normally called the Prime Minister). I'm just wondering if there was something undemocratic or unusual about the election of Papoulias as President.

 

[Roadtoad]

Greek politics tend to be confusing, even to the Greeks. At least, so far as I've seen. The big problem is you have civil servants who have worked for years now without a paycheck. That they did so strongly indicates they've done their part to maintain order. You'd think by now the Government would be doing their part.

Dude, I'll repeat what everyone else is saying: Please stay safe and out of trouble.

 

[JihadJane]

Thanks for your report, El Greco.

 

[Complexity]

Stay safe, ignore the fools, and keep looking great.

 

[joesixpack]

The usual suspects (when hooded thugs start smashing property) are the cops. Those of you who are unaware of this should look around a bit more. Cops capitalize on organizations like the so-called "Black Block" during demonstrations in order to justify using violence on demonstrators.

I have seen first hand how police try to infiltrate political organizations in the US. It's not just CT/truther BS. I'm certain that it's not at all uncommon in the Eurozone.

 

[mortimer]

The usual suspects (when hooded thugs start smashing property) are the cops. Those of you who are unaware of this should look around a bit more. Cops capitalize on organizations like the so-called "Black Block" during demonstrations in order to justify using violence on demonstrators.

I have seen first hand how police try to infiltrate political organizations in the US. It's not just CT/truther BS. I'm certain that it's not at all uncommon in the Eurozone.

That's quite an interesting POV. Any evidence that the police in Greece are the ones perpetrating damage to property?

 

[joesixpack]

That's quite an interesting POV. Any evidence that the police in Greece are the ones perpetrating damage to property?

Do I have evidence at my fingertips of Greek police doing so today? No.

Have police forces throughout Europe used agents provocateurs in the past. Yes, as a quick google search would demonstrate if you take a few minutes to research it.

From the wikipedia, "At the 2001 G8 summit in Genoa, police and security services infiltrated black blocs with agents provocateurs. Allegations first surfaced after video footage in which "men in black were seen getting out of police vans near protest marches"

Francesco Cossiga, former head of secret services and Head of state of Italy, advised the 2008 minister in charge of the police, on how to deal with the protests from teachers and students:

He should do what I did when I was Minister of the Interior. [...] infiltrate the movement with agents provocateurs inclined to do anything [...] And after that, with the strength of the gained population consent, [...] beat them for blood and beat for blood also those teachers that incite them. Especially the teachers. Not the elderly, of course, but the girl teachers yes.

It is alleged by British Liberal Democrat MP Tom Brake that the Metropolitan Police made use of agents provocateurs during the G20 Protests in London.

 

[Pardalis]

Do I have evidence at my fingertips of Greek police doing so today? No.

Then your opinion is worthless.

Because some government conspiracies like Watergate happened before, it doesn't mean that 9/11 was one. You are using the same faulty logic as truthers do.

 

[joesixpack]

Then your opinion is worthless.

Because some government conspiracies like Watergate happened before, it doesn't mean that 9/11 was one. You are using the same faulty logic as truthers do.

The comparison is really quite preposterous. Watergate was nothing on the scale of what truthers insist that 9/11 was. I'm saying that different police organizations use similar tactics all across Europe and North America. There's nothing outrageous about that.

 

[Weird Science]

I'm actually doing you a favor by replying to such an idiotic comment, but this is exactly what most Greeks want now. They just can't have it. Nobody asks them.

I think he was being sarcastic?

 

[WildCat]

Stay safe dude.

I think you are right wanting a mandate over this, but would a party willing to tell the truth be electable?

Good luck getting any outside revenue if paying it back will be put to a popular vote.

 

[WildCat]

There are many many videos around youtube indicating that those who burn and destroy are known to the police. There are videos of hooded guys hiding behind police lines. People have caught on camera many such cases. They are all over youtube. For example:

That video proves the existence of plainclothes police officers, but doesn't show them burning or destroying. Do you have a better video?

 

[WildCat]

No, the current Prime Minister was voted by nobody.

What about the 199 members of Parliament who voted for the austerity measures, were they unelected too?

 

[WildCat]

I don't see the point in dragging out the Greek bankruptcy, why not get it over with now?

If you're on the 20th floor and need to get down to the street you can take the 40 flights of stairs, or you can jump. Both ways get you to the street, and jumping is much faster!

But one other factor may be of concern...

 

[Toke]

If you're on the 20th floor and need to get down to the street you can take the 40 flights of stairs, or you can jump. Both ways get you to the street, and jumping is much faster!

But one other factor may be of concern...

A colourful analogy.
Do you have any idea of how accurate it is?

My best guess is that a bankruptcy and return to drackmer would be no worse for the Greeks than the current measures.
And it would be over with within a year or two.

 

[Architect]

Kicking Greece out of the EU will likely be beneficial for everybody, they can can reapply when/is they reach the status of 1. world country in regards to administrative ability as in collecting taxes.

Yes, I can't help thinking they'd get more sympathy if they managed to sort their tax collection sorted out.

 

[Modified]

I think you are right wanting a mandate over this, but would a party willing to tell the truth be electable?

Interesting question. I don't think it's ever been attempted.

 

[KatieG]

It's disgusting, El Greco. I'm very sorry and hope you'll find a way to peacefully get rid of this corrupt political class. And I hope you don't take it to personally against us, as we have not much more saying in what our corrupt political class does than you have.

So true and very scary here in the US.

 

[GlennB]

Yes, I can't help thinking they'd get more sympathy if they managed to sort their tax collection sorted out.

Undoubtedly true, but the Greek saying that goes something like "A fish rots from the head down" is appropriate here. Greek politicians are ming-numbingly corrupt and the public knows it. The first step in sorting out this mess, long term, might be to require those standing for public office to first publish their tax returns and bank statements. OK, there would be precious few candidates .....

Then add some of the 'professional' classes to those under severe scrutiny. I have never been offered a receipt by a Greek lawyer, dentist, builder, surveyor etc. Most are all fiddling the books to an astonishing degree.

And the tax collectors are in on the whole game, big time.

Make a start on that and then ask the low-hanging fruit (the ordinary people whose tax and national insurance is deducted at source) to suck up the tax rises and job losses. Of course it's much too late for this to affect the current situation, but the dysfunction of the Greek system needs to be tackled - long term - from the top down.