A first-hand account of tonight's demonstration in Athens

[geni]

You have absolutely no idea about what is happening here. 2.5 years ago, the government was elected by promising they will give "modest raises". What followed, the whole world knows.

So people voted for a party making non viable promises. Now in fairness everyone does that but generaly on some level you accept that certian things aren't going to happen.

Later, a new government was formed, and now they are voting for things that will affect the next generations. No referendum, no elections, nothing. Without any regard for what polls show, for the demonstrations, for the public sentiment.

The government is formed of the elected representatives of the people. And hey you are doing better than itay which has literaly ended up being lead by a baker,

The public sentiment and the polls are only relivant in so far as they demand something possible. The demonstrations have become accepted at this point.

Will you tell me WHAT exactly helps when a government is so much opposite to what the people want ?

Politics. If what the people want is impossible then they need to engage with the art of the possible.

 

[El Greco]

OK, I guess spending time in prison is a form of austerity living.

There are many many videos around youtube indicating that those who burn and destroy are known to the police. There are videos of hooded guys hiding behind police lines. People have caught on camera many such cases. They are all over youtube. For example:

 

[geni]

OK, I guess spending time in prison is a form of austerity living.

They've got to catch you. Which if there are a large enough number of you can be quite difficult even if you have zero public sympathy and are rioting in the CCTV capital of europe (lot of the london rioters remain uncaught). This however is greece. They threw out a millitary dictatorship as recently as 1974. Throw in a fairly popular cause and you have rioters with public sympathy. Not easy to catch.

 

[Gazpacho]

The Law is holy. The Law is good. Respect The Law.

 

[Pardalis]

Respect The Law.

Laws are there for a reason, unless you're a sociopath.

 

[Pardalis]

The "they have nothing left to loose" excuse is a false one, they still have their moral integrity and their civic responsibility.

 

[El Greco]

So people voted for a party making non viable promises. Now in fairness everyone does that but generaly on some level you accept that certian things aren't going to happen.

The key words here are "on some level". There is NO civilized (or even uncivilized) country in the world where there would be a discrepance of such magnitude.

The government is formed of the elected representatives of the people. And hey you are doing better than itay which has literaly ended up being lead by a baker,

No, the current Prime Minister was voted by nobody.

The public sentiment and the polls are only relivant in so far as they demand something possible. The demonstrations have become accepted at this point.

Politics. If what the people want is impossible then they need to engage with the art of the possible.

The current demonstrations demand something very possible, something that should have already happened 2 years ago: A referendum or elections. If people were allowed to decide, there would be no riots. Even with harder austerity measures.

In your country, a referendum or elections would be 100% certain before such crucials decisions.

 

[Tsukasa Buddha]

Laws are there for a reason, unless you're a sociopath.

MLK Jr. was such a sociopath.

 

[geni]

The key words here are "on some level". There is NO civilized (or even uncivilized) country in the world where there would be a discrepance of such magnitude.

I don't actualy recall any political party running on the basis that WW1 would happen. Events happen.

No, the current Prime Minister was voted by nobody.

Neither was the italian one. Or the last british one for that matter.

The current demonstrations demand something very possible, something that should have already happened 2 years ago: A referendum or elections. If people were allowed to decide, there would be no riots. Even with harder austerity measures.

Yeah. I don't believe you. More importantly the Troika doesn't believe you. Political reality is that when people start demanding votes only a handful of foolish idealists are actually doing it out of democratic principle. Its because they think that the vote will go their way. However in this case the choice is not beween what the Troika wants and even harder austerity measures but between what the Troika wants and massively harder austerity measures.

Come on you you are greek you know this. Did the junta fall because after 6 years people suddenly remebered that they liked demoracy or because they felt than an unnacceptable number of students had been shot and that democracy might prevent that?

In your country, a referendum or elections would be 100% certain before such crucials decisions.

Historicaly no. Untill very recently we didn't have much of a tradition of referendums. Wilson didn't feel the need to hold one before devaluing the pound by 14%.

 

[Pardalis]

MLK Jr. was such a sociopath.

Break other people's property if you're so inclined. Just don't whine when you'll get the repercussions.

 

[Toke]

I don't see the point in dragging out the Greek bankruptcy, why not get it over with now?
Unless unless of course you are a bank wanting to get your money out courtecy of the EU taxpayers.

Kicking Greece out of the EU will likely be beneficial for everybody, they can can reapply when/is they reach the status of 1. world country in regards to administrative ability as in collecting taxes.

 

[geni]

The "they have nothing left to loose" excuse is a false one, they still have their moral integrity and their civic responsibility.

Yeah those both kinda cause problems in this case. Moral integrity makes it hard to support a social system that is so manifestly unfair (zee rich don't pay their taxes see? and I don't mean US style Tax avoidance where at least they provided some jobs for accounts in the process) . Civic responsibility is even more of a problem. This is greece we are talking about. You could argue that there is a civic responsibility to overthrow any goverment that orders police into Athens Polytechnic. When that goverment collition included, untill today, actual fashists (Makis Voridis) things get more complicated.

 

[geni]

I don't see the point in dragging out the Greek bankruptcy, why not get it over with now?
Unless unless of course you are a bank wanting to get your money out courtecy of the EU taxpayers.

At this point the banks are less of an issue than they used to be. They took a massive reduction in the value of their bonds as part of this deal and best anyone can tell have effectively prepared for a total loss in their accounts.

Goverments who've lent money as part of the bailout fund on the other hand would probably like it back.

Kicking Greece out of the EU will likely be beneficial for everybody, they can can reapply when/is they reach the status of 1. world country in regards to administrative ability as in collecting taxes.

There is no particular issue with greece being within the EU but outside the eurozone.

 

[Childlike Empress]

It's disgusting, El Greco. I'm very sorry and hope you'll find a way to peacefully get rid of this corrupt political class. And I hope you don't take it to personally against us, as we have not much more saying in what our corrupt political class does than you have.

 

[Belgian thought]

That would cost certain banks a fair bit of money which would be inconvient. It would also cost italy and portugal a fair chunk of money which would be expensive.

Spain and Italy have very little exposure to Greece - some €4.2bn - France and Germany have far more to lose - some €53.9bn and €19.3bn respectively.

The Telegraph made a nice little interactive guide recently from where I got these figures from - http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/int...9/Graphic-European-debt-crisis-explained.html

 

[geni]

Spain and Italy have very little exposure to Greece - some €4.2bn - France and Germany have far more to lose - some €53.9bn and €19.3bn respectively.

I know. Germany is probably calling the shots here. However Spain and Italy have slightly lower borowing costs while traders still think that there is the possibility that eurozone debt will be backed by germany and neither of them need higher interest rates.

 

[bookitty]

The "they have nothing left to loose" excuse is a false one, they still have their moral integrity and their civic responsibility.

Civic responsibility? To whom? The government wasn't elected, is making poor choices for the Greek people, and is working to keep the status quo for outside interest groups. At that point, one could argue that it is less moral to keep quiet.

 

[Pardalis]

Civic responsibility? To whom? The government wasn't elected, is making poor choices for the Greek people, and is working to keep the status quo for outside interest groups. At that point, one could argue that it is less moral to keep quiet.

I'm not saying they should keep quiet, it's their fundamental right to speak up, it's the breaking things up that annoys me. It's completely counter-productive.

 

[NewtonTrino]

I don't see the point in dragging out the Greek bankruptcy, why not get it over with now?
Unless unless of course you are a bank wanting to get your money out courtecy of the EU taxpayers.

Kicking Greece out of the EU will likely be beneficial for everybody, they can can reapply when/is they reach the status of 1. world country in regards to administrative ability as in collecting taxes.

I'm beginning to think this is the right approach although I'm not sure there is any real sure fire "fix" to this whole thing. I think they don't want to do this because they don't want to set a precedent for bailing.

Anyway, I say rip the damn bandaid off already. Let greece float it's own currency again and that will incentive them to increase productivity.

 

[varwoche]

Thanks for sharing your observations El Greco, much appreciated.