Merged "Iron-rich spheres" - scienctific explanation?

[Oystein]

I don't think Lee wrote that letter. It's really dumb. Hurricane force winds in the elevator shafts.

Are you saying this letter was not written by Mr. Lee personally (it was of course written by one of his scientific staff), or are you saying it is a fake? Or are you saying your expert witness who youi have been carrying in front of you like a banner employs dumb scientists?

 

[beachnut]

Problem:
I can't think up a plausible source for the 5.87% iron spheres.

Solution:
Just say that the RJ Lee Group got it wrong!

Denial is so easy.

I can't think of a... source for ... earth's crust 6% iron. Oh my! You do know Fe stands for iron?

lol, you have to be the best 911 truth supporter on earth. ... "My name is ... prepare to die" from laughter... you made my weekend. smile, you live in a fantasy world; make it the best you can. Good luck.

Iron Microspheres in the Context of the World Trade Center Dust
Well, let’s start with the basics. The World Trade Center was a building with many iron‐based components. There were structural components such as beams and electrical conduit. There were building contents such as desks and file cabinets.

Now, the building is hit by two jet airplanes resulting in a fire fed by jet fuel. The electrical system is compromised resulting in high voltage, high amperage electrical arcing between the wires and the conduit. The fire is in a building with a central core of elevator shafts that act like a chimney efficiently providing the oxygen needed for combustion. The air and other gasses are flowing with hurricane force speeds. The fire is sufficiently hot to exceed the plastic strength of the structural steel and the building collapses.

What about the iron microspheres? The iron has a thin layer of rust flakes that can be easily removed by sticky tape. The iron is heated red hot or hotter and subjected to hurricane force blast furnace like wind. The iron flakes are liberated as small particles and some iron is vaporized. Like drops of water, the iron flakes form molten spheres that solidify and the fume also condenses into spheres, the most efficient geometrical form. Incidentally, iron is not the only material that formed spheres during the event. Some building material is made of minerals containing aluminum and silicon and alumino‐silicate spheres were also observed in the dust.

The formation of iron and other type spheres at temperatures obtainable by the combustion of petroleum or coal based fuels is not a new or unique process. These spheres are the same as iron and alumino‐silicate spheres in the well‐studied fly ash formed from contaminants in coal as it is burned in furnaces.
Rich Lee

Using the RJ Lee group work, debunks your claims. Each time you mention iron spheres, you debunk yourself and expose your ignorance of fire, and what happens in the WTC fire. Not all samples of WTC dust had 6 percent iron.

 

[Oystein]

I can't think of a... source for ... earth's crust 6% iron. Oh my! You do know Fe stands for iron?
...

Beachy, with all due respect, you are blowing air under the troll's wings with stupid arguments.
The iron content of the WTC dust, from thorough mix of building materials and solid combuistion residues, is well below 2% on average. We have many data sets confirming this.
And then we have exactly one outlier - a sample drawn after 9 months of cutting up kilotons of steel.

No, beachy, "earth's crust" is not the solution to the outlier.
Neither is thermite.
Nor is office fires.

 

[ergo]

I further wrote:

If iron content in the 130 Liberty St dust is indeed significantly elevated over that of dust sampled in nearby locations very shortly after 9/11, then the best explanation is iron deposits during the 9 months after the collapse, with nearby debris-cutting beimng the moszt obvious explanation​

Please acknowledge in your own words and full sentence that your claim "I can't think up a plausible source for the 5.87% iron spheres"

...

Quick reminder:
- Measurements by several teams in the months after 9/11 showed iron content of the air above and around GZ to be elevated as a result of iron workers cutting steel debris
- I provided mean values of iron aerosols at a location close to 130 Liberty St but farther away
- I calculated how much iron could be deposited into dust from those aerosols, and I showed assumptions and work

Steven Badger's paper emphasizes that the dust he sampled was distributed during the destruction of the buildings because of the force required for it to enter difficult spaces like above-ceiling, wall insulation, cell-type flooring, and other nooks and crannies. As well as, in one case, a sealed motor.

... This situation is clearly different from a typical office environment where any contamination of equipment would occur by passive deposition on surfaces rather than penetration into sealed components and interior areas of equipment.

 

[DGM]

Steven Badger's paper emphasizes that the dust he sampled was distributed during the destruction of the buildings because of the force required for it to enter difficult spaces like above-ceiling, wall insulation, cell-type flooring, and other nooks and crannies. As well as, in one case, a sealed motor.

And this explains the unusually high percentage, how? Is this the only place this happened?

 

[GlennB]

And this explains the unusually high percentage, how? Is this the only place this happened?

If the particles are fine enough then they will drift, whether during or after collapse. It's a terminal velocity thing, basically. The Lioy et al study happily found lead residues at greater distances, even though lead is denser than iron.

As ever, ergo is waffling and cherry-picking.

 

[ergo]

Admittedly, he doesn't give a percentage for iron microspheres but he shows that all the metallic elements are elevated, compared to background dust.

WTC Dust Markers include: .... pulverized gypsum, fragments of mineral wool, vermiculite, metals, organic components, particles that were generated by the high heat of the fires, and coated particles...

The morphological differences between WTC Dust and typical background dusts include the fineness of particulate and fibers .... the length of the mineral wool and other fibers, and the evidence and frequency of heat affected particulates, including spherical and vesicular particulate...

While, in principle, one might contend that some or all of these contaminants are found in typical urban aerosols, WTC Dust has been shown to contain a unique combination of features. A typical SEM image of WTC Dust is shown in Figure 13.

 

[DGM]

Admittedly, he doesn't give a percentage for iron microspheres but he shows that all the metallic elements are elevated, compared to background dust.

And this would not be expected after a building collapsed?

Do you actually have a point?

 

[KreeL]

"Hurricane force winds" = baloney

Come on. Show proof or quit making up sandwich meat.

 

[DGM]

"Hurricane force winds" = baloney

Come on. Show proof or quit making up sandwich meat.

Explain? Is the concept of the "chimney effect" also a sandwich meat?

Why don't you explain? Based on your past performance I won't hold my breath.

 

[sheeplesnshills]

I don't think Lee wrote that letter. It's really dumb. Hurricane force winds in the elevator shafts.

another Chris7 argument from personal incredulity. Notice how he doesn't even make an attempt to show why this is unlikely..........just states that it is.

So Chris do you know knock RJ Lee off your list of reliable sources? So we cannot believe their information on the iron or lead? or are you, as usual, just cherry picking what you want and want not to accept?

 

[sheeplesnshills]

The elevator shafts were sealed except for where the planes hit. They could not act like chimneys at all.

Why would they be sealed? We already know a aviation fuel explosion occurred in them on impact (all the way down to the basement level) so its likely there were many open or damaged elevator doors etc in the 80 floors or so below the fire.

 

[Edx]

another Chris7 argument from personal incredulity. Notice how he doesn't even make an attempt to show why this is unlikely..........just states that it is.

So Chris do you know knock RJ Lee off your list of reliable sources? So we cannot believe their information on the iron or lead? or are you, as usual, just cherry picking what you want and want not to accept?

RJ Lee is whatever Chris needs them to be. In on it, stupid, incompetent, highly credentialed experts. All at the same time .

 

[beachnut]

Admittedly, he doesn't give a percentage for iron microspheres but he shows that all the metallic elements are elevated, compared to background dust.

What was the percentage of Fe?

Maybe it was a form of asbestos thermite used.

It looks like Steven Badger's paper says

The most abundantly observed metals in the WTC Dust include: calcium, magnesium, copper, aluminum, iron, zinc, lead, arsenic, cadmium, and beryllium (Figure 28). Lead, copper, mercury and zinc were derived from combustion and pulverization of WTC materials such as computer parts, electrical systems, ductwork, fluorescent lights, thermostats, and office furniture.

The paper never mentions thermite.

 

[sheeplesnshills]

"Hurricane force winds" = baloney

Come on. Show proof or quit making up sandwich meat.

the iron micro spheres are the proof.....

and thermite = baloney Come on. Show proof or quit making up sandwich meat.

 

[Justin39640]

I read it. He said that hurricane force winds provided the oxygen needed to melt iron flakes.

To me it seems like you're using a report as evidence and at the same time, from the same report, from the same part, you're disagreeing with him (cause he's explaining where the observed spheres came from) and the fact that their research supports fire induced collapses as well.

Doesn't that seem... odd to you???

Unlike any truther "paper", lots of people read this stuff and made real decisions based on it. If it (or any other "official" reports or papers) were faked, the outrage would be universal and very very loud.

 

[beachnut]

Lead in Mineral Wool Insulation
"Mineral wool insulation manufactured before 1970 has been found to have lead particles. According to industry sources, lead slag is no longer used in the manufacture of mineral wool, although lead can be ... http://www.haz-map.com/leadfact.htm http://www.osha.gov/dts/osta/otm/otm_v/otm_v_3.html http://www.osha.gov/dts/osta/otm/otm_v/otm_v_3.html

... emphasis was placed on determining the precise cause of failures of the buildings’ fireproofing system. The first 39 floors of Tower One were constructed with fireproofing that contained mineral wool (a synthetic, vitreous fiber) and chrysotile asbestos. The fireproofing was bound with portland cement... TREATISE OF WORLD TRADE CENTER (WTC) DUST GENERATED DURING THE SEPTEMBER 2001 TERRORIST ATTACKS ON THE WTC TOWERS
A Thesis in Materials By Steven R. Badger

Evidence, Pb was in the mineral wool before 10 terrorists arrived.

 

[Edx]

To me it seems like you're using a report as evidence and at the same time, from the same report, from the same part, you're disagreeing with him (cause he's explaining where the observed spheres came from) and the fact that their research supports fire induced collapses as well.

Doesn't that seem... odd to you???

Christopher is now in the tricky position of arguing RJ Lee believe things they specifically say they don't believe. He cannot give up RJ Lee as his credible expert source, so it must be annoying that they really really don't agree with anything he said here. And yet he has asked us before, sarcastically, who are we to question RJ Lee? Who are we to say they are incompetent? Apparently Christopher can, except when he's not.

 

[A W Smith]

Oh how hard Chris Sarns will fall.

Christopher is now in the tricky position of arguing RJ Lee believe things they specifically say they don't believe. He cannot give up RJ Lee as his credible expert source, so it must be annoying that they really really don't agree with anything he said here. And yet he has asked us before, sarcastically, who are we to question RJ Lee? Who are we to say they are incompetent? Apparently Christopher can, except when he's not.

Ever see a carpenter fall off a ladder when he anticipates a step which doesn't exist? Cognitive disequilibrium!!

 

[Christopher7]

Evidence, Pb was in the mineral wool before 10 terrorists arrived.

In is not the same as on.

"The presence of lead oxides on the surface of mineral wool indicates the exposure of


high temperatures at which lead would have undergone vaporization,

3182^oF


oxidation, and condensation on the surface of mineral wool."