Merged "Iron-rich spheres" - scienctific explanation?

[ergo]

Problem:
I can't think up a plausible source for the 5.87% iron spheres.

Solution:
Just say that the RJ Lee Group got it wrong!

Anything and everything that doesn't fit into their theory is rejected as "false" or "mistaken". Even if it's from the same source, in the same breath. If it was one or two items, we could understand this. But it's every single time, multiple items of conflicting data, on every subject. This is the very definition of bad science. Rejecting data that does not support your theory.

 

[000063]

Anything and everything that doesn't fit into their theory is rejected as "false" or "mistaken". Even if it's from the same source, in the same breath. If it was one or two items, we could understand this. But it's every single time, multiple items of conflicting data, on every subject. This is the very definition of bad science. Rejecting data that does not support your theory.

Your lack of self awareness never ceases to amaze me.

 

[GlennB]

deleted - still thinking about it

 

[ergo]

Because the elevator shafts were sealed so there could not have been a draft, much less hurricane force winds.

Not to mention staggered. And not to mention no one, not even the people walking down the stairwell for over an hour, ever talked about winds, except when the building was coming down.

ETA: And the columns were wrapped with gypsum except where the planes hit.

And concrete.

 

[000063]

Not to mention staggered. And not to mention no one, not even the people walking down the stairwell for over an hour, ever talked about winds, except when the building was coming down....

They also didn't talk about showers of smoke and sparks consistent with thermite, or had any injuries or experiences consistent with explosives. In fact, no one did.

It's so cute how Chris is all about Lee, and when Lee says something he doesn't like, he basically starts going on about how Lee is wrong, then mocks us for saying Lee is wrong. That's never really been the main argument. The argument has been that you are misinterpreting Lee's paper. The fact that "Chris7 is wrong" registers as "RJ Lee is wrong" is rather telling.

Lee never said the "hurricane speed winds" were actually flowing through the shafts. He says the shafts provided oxygen and acted like a chimney, then in his next sentence he says the air and other gases were flowing at hurricane speeds. Considering that many of the fires in question were exposed to outside air by the plane impact, that was probably what he was referring to.

But please, you two enjoy your little backpatting party.

 

[Christopher7]

It's so cute how Chris is all about Lee, and when Lee says something he doesn't like, he basically starts going on about how Lee is wrong,

I don't think Lee wrote that letter. It's really dumb. Hurricane force winds in the elevator shafts.

 

[deeper]

In light of the recent letter from RJ Lee, this thread reminds me of the following clip.

Where Christopher7 is Stan and his hundred dollars is the time and effort he was investing into his claims that the iron-rich spheres are significant proof of an inside-job.



If it hadn't "gone", he was hoping it would have eventually matured into a Pulitzer Prize.

 

[ergo]

I don't think Lee wrote that letter. It's really dumb. Hurricane force winds in the elevator shafts.

I think it's very telling that they feel the need to speculate on such things. They could have simply said that such microspheres are created in any and all building fires. Period.

But let's give the bedunkers their point: We can now say with certainty that RJ Lee does not publicly support an alternative explanation for the towers' failures. This is good for us, too, since that was only ever a strawman thrown around. And they have confirmed, through their colourful scene setting, that "blast-furnace-like" temperatures were needed.

It would have been helpful to see what the e-mail Ron Wieck sent them asked. They still have not explained the high percentage of spheres found, nor did anyone ask them about things like molybdenum melting.

 

[DGM]

Not to mention staggered. And not to mention no one, not even the people walking down the stairwell for over an hour, ever talked about winds, except when the building was coming down.


.

Are you claiming people were escaping through the elevator shaft section of the core?

Looks like we have to add the tower's layout to the things you're clueless about.

 

[000063]

I don't think Lee wrote that letter. It's really dumb. Hurricane force winds in the elevator shafts.

You're not very good at this quote mining thing. You need to turn the comma into a period, otherwise, people are going to notice you only have part of a sentence.

Of course, you cut out the part of my post where I point out Lee never said the hurricane speed gases were flowing through the shafts, and was probably referring to air and gases from the outside.

And then there's the hypocrisy of the fact that the Lee Group supports the official story, and you disagree with them on that matter, but mock us for allegedly disagreeing with them.

 

[ergo]

Are you claiming people were escaping through the elevator shaft section of the core?

Looks like we have to add the tower's layout to the things you're clueless about.

Right, because the air would only be pushed through the staggered, sealed elevator shafts, not the other open conduits.

 

[Christopher7]

Lee never said the "hurricane speed winds" were actually flowing through the shafts. He says the shafts provided oxygen and acted like a chimney, then in his next sentence he says the air and other gases were flowing at hurricane speeds. Considering that many of the fires in question were exposed to outside air by the plane impact, that was probably what he was referring to.

"The fire is in a building with a central core of elevator shafts that act like a chimney efficiently providing the oxygen needed for combustion."

The elevator shafts were sealed except for where the planes hit. They could not act like chimneys at all.

ETA: and he [sic] is talking about hurricane force winds in the elevator shafts.
"The fire is in a building with a central core of elevator shafts that act like a chimney efficiently providing the oxygen needed for combustion. The air and other gasses are flowing with hurricane force speeds"

 

[000063]

Are you claiming people were escaping through the elevator shaft section of the core?

Looks like we have to add the tower's layout to the things you're clueless about.

He seems to be claiming the staircases were in the elevator shafts.

 

[000063]

I think it's very telling that they feel the need to speculate on such things. They could have simply said that such microspheres are created in any and all building fires. Period.

Except they're not. If my wooden cabin burns down, there might easily not be any iron micropheres, depending on the contents of the house and nature of the fire. Being precise is not the same as "speculation".

But let's give the bedunkers their point: We can now say with certainty that RJ Lee does not publicly support an alternative explanation for the towers' failures. This is good for us, too, since that was only ever a strawman thrown around.

By who, exactly? We've been arguing that the group doesn't directly support any conspiracy theory for dozens of pages now. It's Chris7 who wants to use their evidence but not their conclusions.

And they have confirmed, through their colourful scene setting, that "blast-furnace-like" temperatures were needed.

I like how you're not talking to any actual debunkers about this.

It would have been helpful to see what the e-mail Ron Wieck sent them asked. They still have not explained the high percentage of spheres found, nor did anyone ask them about things like molybdenum melting.

Argument from ignorance/lack of evidence, moving goalposts.

Right, because the air would only be pushed through the staggered, sealed elevator shafts, not the other open conduits.

Not actually Lee's assertion. Oxygen flowing through/from the elevator shafts does not preclude other sources of O₂. Straw man.

"The fire is in a building with a central core of elevator shafts that act like a chimney efficiently providing the oxygen needed for combustion."

The elevator shafts were sealed except for where the planes hit. They could not act like chimneys at all.

The shafts had oxygen in them.

I like how you ignore the part where you're wrong about the winds flowing up the shafts, and how Lee suddenly isn't credible when he says something bad for your case and you can't rationalize it away.

Do you work at being this intellectually dishonest, or does it come naturally?

 

[sheeplesnshills]

This is very educational.

So you all are going with this?

The fire is in a building with a central core of elevator shafts that act like a chimney efficiently providing the oxygen needed for combustion. The air and other gasses are flowing with hurricane force speeds.
The iron is heated red hot or hotter and subjected to hurricane force blast furnace like wind. The iron flakes are liberated as small particles and some iron is vaporized. Like drops of water, the iron flakes form molten spheres that solidify and the fume also condenses into spheres.

He did not say anything about office contents causing the spheres.

In short he is saying:
It was hurricane blast furnace like winds up the elevator shafts that heated the steel framework to red hot or hotter which caused a thin layer of rust flakes to melt and some vaporized. The molten iron and vapors formed into the iron spheres.


Is that now your position on how the spheres were formed?

Do you think this process could produce enough spheres to make up nearly 6% of the dust?

Chris you have an amazing ability to misinterpret what people say. They are not saying that the strong winds melted the iron, they are saying the strong winds (the chimney effect) provided a high rate of oxygen flow to the office fires (ie force ventilated as in a blacksmiths forge) which increased the temperature of the fire to the point it will create the iron spheres you obsess about. ie they are expected

 

[000063]

He's asserting that the shafts were sealed. Which is weird, because I specifically recall something about an explosion in the lobby being used as evidence of explosives by Truthers. Of course, an elevator dropping from severed cables could possibly have damaged the doors. According to USA today, fire was moving between shafts, and exploding in elevator lobbies and bathrooms next to the shafts. While the elevators themselves were staggered, the shafts themselves often went the length of the building.

So much for the seal. So in addition to the Oxy in the shafts proper, there were multiple breaches throughout their length. Hence, chimney effect.

 

[DGM]

Right, because the air would only be pushed through the staggered, sealed elevator shafts, not the other open conduits.

I rest my case.

Hint: sealed from what?

 

[DGM]

He seems to be claiming the staircases were in the elevator shafts.

Beyond that, the staircases were open. It's almost like he thinks building designers have never heard of fire codes or the "chimney effect".

 

[Oystein]

Problem:
I can't think up a plausible source for the 5.87% iron spheres.

Solution:
Just say that the RJ Lee Group got it wrong!

Denial is so easy.

What a transparent lie!

I wrote:

RJ Lee's high value is either an error, or misleading, or due to factors not immediately related to buildings' collapses and dustification.​

Please acknowledge that I did NOT just say they were wrong, but that they were wrong OR the data is not what we think it is OR there is a reason outside the events leading to and during the WTC collapses!

I further wrote:

If iron content in the 130 Liberty St dust is indeed significantly elevated over that of dust sampled in nearby locations very shortly after 9/11, then the best explanation is iron deposits during the 9 months after the collapse, with nearby debris-cutting beimng the moszt obvious explanation​

Please acknowledge in your own words and full sentence that your claim "I can't think up a plausible source for the 5.87% iron spheres"

I would also like to remind you of the severally repeated detailed explanation I gave you last months and asked youz several time to acknowlegde and refure. You must remember that you made the decision several times to now reply to that plausible source I detailed for you. Do you want me to quote my posts, and your replies, so that everybody can see how massive and vile your lie is?


Quick reminder:
- Measurements by several teams in the months after 9/11 showed iron content of the air above and around GZ to be elevated as a result of iron workers cutting steel debris
- I provided mean values of iron aerosols at a location close to 130 Liberty St but farther away
- I calculated how much iron could be deposited into dust from those aerosols, and I showed assumptions and work
- I asked you to critically review that calculation
- You handwaved.



Do you remember, C7? Please acknowledge!

 

[Oystein]

I quoted RJ Lee saying that computers contain ~4 pounds of lead.

But there is no mention of iron spheres from office contents of any kind in the report or Rich's letter.

What happened to that lead, according to the RJ Lee reports?