Merged Apollo "hoax" discussion / Lick observatory laser saga

[Patrick1000]

It may be in Wiki, but more significantly it is an old high school physics.....

Poor analogy from Wikipedia - apples? Really? How does 10-20 joules relate to ignition and/or a spark? I predict you won't answer, nor will you answer the other questions posed to you. You don't have the science or engineering background.

It may be in Wiki, but more significantly, it is an old high school physics rule of thumb. Regardless of analogy, my point is most excellent about the Cortright Commission's bogus efforts.

 

[Patrick1000]

The objection is with the experimental details given nomuse.....

And you claim to understand chemistry?

A kilo-joule delivered to the air of the room I'm in would heat it up slightly. That same kilo-joule delivered to a single spot on my hand would leave a third-degree burn.

The wires leading into the O2 tank didn't gently heat all the teflon in the tank until it reached ignition as a single mass; they sparked, bringing a single pin-point up to plasma temperatures.

The objection is with the experimental details given nomuse.....

The point being, 10-20 joules of juice is meaningless in the context provided by NASA. The context they provide, is no context whatsoever.

Were this a legitimate report, the investigators would need to provide context, experimental details so that their experiments and their findings could be repeated. Otherwise NASA's claims and their Cortright Commission Report in general are worthless, which at this point I am indeed claiming they are, WORTHLESS.

Unless someone can come up with experimental details, I am more than entitled to say this entire report is FRAUDULENT. Better get busy on your end....

Perhaps you can rescue Neil and friends by finding those experimental details nomuse.

Can anyone really believe that Neil Armstrong himself was foolish enough to sign that ridiculous thing?! Claims about an explosion's initiation without ANY mention of experimental details!? Talk about self incriminating. Talk about siding with incompetent fraud stooges.......

 

[Patrick1000]

It would appear that in the world of Apollo nomuse, I indeed understand chemistry....

And you claim to understand chemistry?

A kilo-joule delivered to the air of the room I'm in would heat it up slightly. That same kilo-joule delivered to a single spot on my hand would leave a third-degree burn.

The wires leading into the O2 tank didn't gently heat all the teflon in the tank until it reached ignition as a single mass; they sparked, bringing a single pin-point up to plasma temperatures.

It would appear that in the world of Apollo nomuse, I indeed understand chemistry quite well. Can anyone believe this, that in 42 and one half years of this shuck and jive I am the first person to point out that these guys pulled 20 joules of of the hat? Not to mention that they pulled everything else out of their phony space hat as well?

Not one detail about how they came up with this garbage, not a one, just a naked and very bogus NASA claim it would seem,......How dumb could they have been?

Looks like I am going to be anonymously famous after all nomuse. It would seem that this is one BOTCH they ain't gonna' be able to play down.....

Neil, are you out there?????????

 

[JayUtah]

If I have nothing to say Jay, why are you bothering with any of this?

So that reasonable but uninformed people aren't fooled by your bluster and ignorance. I'm the person the world comes to when they need to know about Moon landing hoax theories. Unlike you, my reputation for excellence, honesty, and competence in this field is attached to my real name.

You seem rather obsessed with my theories Jay considering all the time and effort you invest in your feeble efforts to counter my FACTS.

Third time you've tried to shame me into not responding. Nervous? You're guilty of an eight-month odyssey across the network spouting the same nonsense theories over several web forums from which you were banned, and into which it still seems that you're trying to gain (now disallowed) access. That does not sound like a position from which you can credibly accuse others of having an unhealthy obsession.

Are you planning to write a medical text...

Straw man.

Oh, and as far as the chem stuff, I have yet to find anything worthwhile regarding the activation energy for that Teflon combustion reaction.

Then you are patently atrocious as a researcher. It took me ten seconds to find it in an online reference. Not to mention that I have it in my standard materials references. It is my profession, after all.

I wonder why that is? Perhaps you'd care to provide that to us Jay so that we can all get started.

Nope.

You are notorious for getting other people to do your homework for you so that you can later take credit for it. So even though I have the appropriate manual open to the right page right now, with the data you seek right in front of me, you will not get any help from me on this point. The test is for you to demonstrate your skill. It's clear to everyone that you lack it.

And since this is your test, this isn't a case of everyone waiting for Jay so that "we can all get started." This is a case of everyone waiting for Patrick to put up or shut up. And since you're now fishing for hints and trying to shift the burden of proof, I conclude that you are unable and unwilling to provide the promised computations.

Your argument is therefore rejected. You admitted that you did not have the engineering skill to back up your claims. I think we should take you at your word -- that is, if you're willing to extend that blanket admission to this case and admit you make a claim you cannot substantiate and therefore must withdraw. But making it sound like it's someone else's fault that you can't produce the required proof is highly dishonest -- especially when you claim that those people are somehow misinformed or hoodwinked.

I have made more progress researching Apollo, telling the truth about the American Apollo Program in 8 months than all Apollo researchers combined have on both sides of the fence in the last 42 and one half years, so don't give me your bogus jive Jay about dragging my feet.

Spare us your bluster. When I have your contact information in my Inbox, then you can talk. The only "progress" you've made in eight months is to post the same nonsense to at least four different web forums under a host of anonymous identities and sock puppets, and steadfastly ignore anything that's said to you in response. That's not progress of any kind.

I'm inviting you to make real progress by taking you eight-month odyssey to the next level and making it a "real person" event. When you're ready to step out from behind your contradictory shield of anonymity, let us know. Otherwise it's clear that what you're doing today is posturing for the moral right to maintain the safety net.

Posterity will thank me.........

Most of posterity already has put you on "ignore."

 

[JayUtah]

My personal letters were/are far from anonymous...

First you have to prove they were not fictitious. You say they were sent registered mail. Post scans of the return receipts.

If Jay has that much pull I may take him up on the offer at some point.

Why not now?

 

[JayUtah]

I believe I have emphasized enough that I have written to the perpetrators directly...

Yes, you've made this claim repeatedly, but since you lie habitually no one believes you. Making another unsubstantiated claim does not substantiate the first claim. Given your proven track record over the past eight months, it's far more likely that this latest claim is just another strand in a vast web of inter-supporting lies.

Suddenly, after weeks of ignoring invitations to meet with your "perps" in person, you come up with a new claim that you've personally corresponded with the Apollo astronauts some time ago, and therefore you suddenly don't need help meeting them in person, so you suddenly don't need to provide any contact information. Why didn't this revelation issue forth when the invitation was first made? Is it because it took you this long to think of a way to evade a "put up or shut up" ultimatum? Why the sudden invocation of this previously-existing long-standing relationship with the Apollo insiders? Did you suddenly remember that you were buddies with them?

 

[JayUtah]

Oh my, isn't this interesting.......Jay thinks "activation energy" is something Patrick1000 might be able to calculate.

Uh, no, there's nothing like that anywhere in the post.

Such an erudite group here and not a SINGLE ONE OF YOU seems to understand any fundamentals of chemistry.

Funny that you have to try to put words in our mouths to make it seem that way.

Just so you know Jay, [activation energy] is not something I can calculate. It is something that would be empirically determined.

No, it's something you look up in standard references, from the empirical results derived by others. Do you really think every engineer starts every problem back at first principles? I never told you to calculate activation energy. In fact, I've never event mentioned the word, to my recollection. You mentioned that you would need to perform computations to determine whether the PTFE would ignite under the named circumstances. And you mentioned activation energy as a value that you believed would be necessary for the computation. I didn't give you any specifics, or any confirmations or denials -- I have simply asked to you quit dragging your feet and do what you promised to do, using whatever you think or believe is necessary.

Now if you're all finished with your straw man gyrations, please do what you said you would do, or else conceded that you cannot.

 

[nomuse]

"Straw Man Gyrations" gets added to my list of band names right now.

 

[SpitfireIX]

Are you planning to write a medical text Jay and claim that influenza vaccines are 100% efficacious.....? That might be helpful given the dire straights Apollo is in here.

I tried and failed before to figure out where you came up with your assertion that Berry claimed the vaccine was 100% effective; this time I found it by searching the thread.

<snip>

From the New York Times, correspondent Richard Lyons, December 22 1968;

<snip>

" Dr. Berry emphasized that Colonel Borman did not have the so called Hong Kong flu. The astronauts were immunized against this variety more than a month ago with one of the first batches of vaccine to become available."

Not Berry, nor any other physician could make such a nonsensical determination, say that since Borman received an influenza vaccine, he would by virtue of that vaccination, be immune. Vaccines then and now were not/are not anywhere near 100% efficacious.

It's clear that you've chosen to interpret the quotation as "Dr. Berry emphasized that Colonel Borman did not have the so called Hong Kong flu because the astronauts were immunized . . ." There is no reason to believe this is the correct interpretation. An interpretation at least equally likely (and, I would argue, far more likely) is that Lyons was merely relating an additional fact, namely, that the astronauts had been vaccinated.

Therefore, your assertion that Berry claimed the vaccine was 100% effective is baseless, as it relies solely on your (clearly biased) interpretation of a news report that is at best ambiguous.

Further, you are ignoring the very strong possibility that Berry had ruled out the Hong Kong flu because Borman's symptoms didn't fit very well, and other possibilities were far more likely.

Anyone of you is plenty smart enough to look up the facts regarding influenza vaccine efficacy . . .

See above.

. . . the circumstances regarding the Hong Kong Flu Pandemic of 1968/1969, the reasons for concerns regarding astronauts huddled together in the confined quarters of a CM, basics regarding the work up of garden variety infectious diarrhea, the implications of any given diagnosis.

From the CDC page on flu symptoms:

Flu Symptoms & Severity

Influenza Symptoms

Influenza (also known as the flu) is a contagious respiratory illness caused by flu viruses. It can cause mild to severe illness, and at times can lead to death. The flu is different from a cold. The flu usually comes on suddenly. People who have the flu often feel some or all of these symptoms:

• Fever* or feeling feverish/chills
• Cough
• Sore throat
• Runny or stuffy nose
• Muscle or body aches
• Headaches
• Fatigue (tiredness)
• Some people may have vomiting and diarrhea, though this is more common in children than adults.

* It's important to note that not everyone with flu will have a fever.

From the Apollo 8 transcript, Day 2 Green:

Collins: Roger. We are reading you loud and clear. We are on a private loop now and we would like to get some amplifying details on your medical problems. Could you go back to the beginning and give us a brief recap, please?

Borman: Mike, this is Frank. I'm feeling a lot better now. I think I had a case of the 24-hour flu, intestinal flu.

Collins: Roger; understand. When did you first notice it? Or can you go back to P00 and start us out at the beginning of your problem?

Borman: Roger. About, I guess about 20 hours, 19 hours yesterday.

Collins: Roger. Understand about 19 hours yesterday. We were confused by something Jim said in reference to getting out of the suits. He said that he felt a little bit uneasy when he first got out of the couch and started to get out of the suits and that passed away and that you and Bill had, we think, noticed similar things when you took your suits off. Is this so?

Borman: Just when you get out of the seats and start moving around for a while.

Collins: Roger. Understand. We understand this does cause nausea, in all three of you. You have all three noticed it when you've gotten out of the suits for the first time or any time, is that right?

Borman: Roger. Uneasiness, not nausea really, but a sort of awareness of motion, like the zero-g airplane.

Collins: Roger, understand.

Berry: Apollo 8, this is Houston.

Borman: Go ahead.

Berry: Frank, this is Chuck. The story we got from the tape and from Jim a while ago went like this. At some 10 to 11 hours ago, you had a loose BM, you vomited twice, you have a headache, you've had some chills, and they thought you had fever. Is that affirm?

Borman: Everything is true, but I don't have a fever now. I slept for a couple hours and the nausea is gone, and controlling the loose BM. I think everything is in good shape right now.

Berry: Did you have a sore throat?

Borman: The roof of my mouth was sore, Roger.

Berry: And as we understand it at the moment, Frank, neither Bill nor Jim have anything at the present time except some nausea. Is that right?

Borman: No, none of us are nauseated now. We are all fine now.

Berry: Okay, and you have taken the Lomotil?

Borman: No, no we haven't. Pardon me, yes they have.

Berry: They have and you have not?

Borman: Roger. I just woke up, Chuck. They took them while I was asleep.

Berry: Okay, I think you ought to take one, Frank, and the Marezine will help if that nausea returns. The Marezine will knock that...

[. . .]

Berry: Frank, did you read that you are to take the Lomotil and the Marezine can be used if you do get nauseated, any one of the three of you.

Borman: Okay, thank you. [annotations omitted]

So, the only symptoms of flu that Borman had were a possible fever, chills, headache, and diarrhea/vomiting, which is more common in children. No cough, no sore throat, no stuffy nose, no muscle or body aches, and no fatigue. Further, at the time of this discussion, he had no fever, and stated that his condition had improved considerably. Considering that he had been vaccinated, that no one who had recently been in contact with the astronauts was suffering from the Hong Kong flu, but that there had been a recent outbreak of gastroenteritis, exactly how likely do you believe it would have been that he might actually have been suffering from the Hong Kong flu at that point?

Take a look at what professionals in the relevant fields have to say about these things. They are telling you that Charles Berry is a big fat fraud. There are no two ways about this.

Your continual proclamations of fraud do not prove anything. Your interpretations are demonstrably incorrect.

Posterity will thank me.........

"But the fact that some geniuses were laughed at does not imply that all who are laughed at are geniuses. They laughed at Columbus, they laughed at Fulton, they laughed at the Wright Brothers. But they also laughed at Bozo the Clown."

--Carl Sagan

 

[JayUtah]

It may be in Wiki, but more significantly, it is an old high school physics rule of thumb.

Or so you say. The rest of the world can easily note that your knowledge of science never seems to extend beyond Wikipedia (even when Wikipedia is wrong) or the first few Google hits, or the pages Google Books excerpts for you from larger works. You told us you were an expert in this sort of science. Why does an expert need Wikipedia at all?

And you clearly understand nothing about energy deposition and temperature. Why? Because Wikipedia didn't have that in the article.

 

[JayUtah]

[Neil Armstrong] had his chance to respond to me and did not, so no big deal from my end.

I don't believe you. I think you're lying. But I'm giving you the opportunity to prove that you aren't lying. I'm giving you the opportunity to have verifiable personal contact with the people you accuse. Not just vague, trumped-up claims of having written letters that went unanswered.

 

[JayUtah]

The point being, 10-20 joules of juice is meaningless in the context provided by NASA. The context they provide, is no context whatsoever.

Translation: I wasn't aware that context affected my claim, so I'm going to pooh-pooh the notion of context.

Were this a legitimate report, the investigators would need to provide context...

No. The reader is expected to know what the context is. Engineering analysis does not go back to first principles every time. You don't get to reframe your layman's misconceptions as if they were someone else's shortcomings. The world is not obliged to compensate for you.

Unless someone can come up with experimental details, I am more than entitled to say this entire report is FRAUDULENT.

Nope. You admitted you didn't have the engineering background to determine whether Apollo was fradulent. Therefore you are most certainly not entitled to pass judgment on technical evaluations. You are a self-proclaimed layman, and you don't know what you're talking about. Nor is anyone else responsible for your education, to "provide experimental details." Your laziness an inept research are not points in your favor.

These reports have been studied and dissected ad nauseam by an entire industry of professionals. Your uninformed bluster is therefore rejected.

 

[Garrison]

I keep wondering why when a veritable army of professional engineers and scientists have read the report on the Apollo 13 accident over the years and found no discrepancy Patrick1000 expects us to take his word, the word of a person who thought Teflon wouldn't burn, that they are all wrong? Why indeed does he expect anyone reading this thread, and has familiarized themselves with his frequent errors, to believe him? Who in short is Patrick1000 aiming his misguided musings at?
Oh and of course the other outstanding questions about his Teflon and Oxygen claims still apply, as does the question as to why he won't take up the offer to confront those he accuses.

 

[Tomblvd]

I tried and failed before to figure out where you came up with your assertion that Berry claimed the vaccine was 100% effective; this time I found it by searching the thread.

Actually, Patrick implied it in one of his ill-fated medical screeds long ago and he's been trying to climb out of that hole ever since.

It's clear that you've chosen to interpret the quotation as "Dr. Berry emphasized that Colonel Borman did not have the so called Hong Kong flu because the astronauts were immunized . . ." There is no reason to believe this is the correct interpretation. An interpretation at least equally likely (and, I would argue, far more likely) is that Lyons was merely relating an additional fact, namely, that the astronauts had been vaccinated.

Therefore, your assertion that Berry claimed the vaccine was 100% effective is baseless, as it relies solely on your (clearly biased) interpretation of a news report that is at best ambiguous.

Note that it isn't even a quote from Berry, but an interpretation of what he said by a news reporter.

Further, you are ignoring the very strong possibility that Berry had ruled out the Hong Kong flu because Borman's symptoms didn't fit very well, and other possibilities were far more likely.

As I said a while back, and Patrick ignored, they were almost sure it was a 24 hr virus because the workers at Kennedy were suffering from the exact same thing.

That's a diagnosis even the pretend doctor Pat could make.

 

[Patrick1000]

NASA's Work Must Be Repeatable

As is the case with any piece of scientific work, if the Cortright Commission Report findings are not repeatable, they are worthless, meaningless.

It appears to us all at this time that such is indeed the case. NASA has provided no records with regard to how the Cortright Commission's determinations were made.

The Cortright Commission engaged in declaration, not experimentation. Their findings are no findings at all. Like all the rest of Apollo, this is not science, this is FRAUD, plain and simple.......

Saying these clowns are now busted dead to rights would be a bit of an understatement...

Oh Happy Day! Apollo is dead.....

This here space ship has done blowed up.........

 

[frenat]

Aye.

Aye.

Aye, Aye

 

[frenat]

My personal letters were/are far from anonymous....

Keep your motor running by the way SUSpilot. If Jay has that much pull I may take him up on the offer at some point.

Your personal letters of which you offer no proof that they were actually written. Meanwhile you hide behind the anonymity of a forum.

 

[Andy_Ross]

All NASA needs to do is refer to the SPecs of the materials as provided by the manufacturer. They don't need to do any 'experiments'

 

[R.A.F.]

Regardless of analogy, my point is most excellent...

Translation...doesn't matter that I am always wrong, because I say I'm right.

 

[Gorgonian]

Because I wrote a 20 page letter to Neil Armstrong 8 months ago ......Been there, done that. I have written to plenty of the other perps as well. Next question Gorgonian.......

You said you would debate these people. In person, face to face. Not write a latter to them. Why haven't you gotten your contact info to Jay so this can be done? What are you afraid of? Isn't it your moral duty?