Merged General Holocaust denial discussion thread

[Cyrix686]

So a group of people "Jews" were singled out and murdered and just because they won't fit in with how you arbitarily choose to interpret facts sociologically, as "integrated," or "not integrated," What do you want, pie charts with that? How ever you choose to re-analyse the data in order to twist it and tease it free from obvious conclusions for the sake of sheer argument the non denier conclusions are still there (unless you've suddenly read widely and deeply upon genocidal matters and know different and are about to upset the field of Genocide Studies in your pursuits.

And as for this magic, the only ones even remotely claiming that magic was used, are of course revisionist and for murky reasons only known to your gallery-playing selves. Usually I note when stymied by the documents the argument takes the scientific or forensic twist back in on its self.

Not to say of course that claiming that people were magicked out of existence in order to avoid any further damaging potential acceptance of something as a known fact isn't well within the range and target of the inchoate standard that Internet revisionism chooses to practise.

But really, some were integrated, some weren't? To the policy makers and enforcers, Jews were Jews and after the cautious murder of the German ones, I don't think it really mattered much if they were all from Poland, Hungary or Kerala. As many as possible had to disappear. Perhaps that's where your "magic" jeer comes into it? That they were integrated on not in order to satisfy Dogzilla's bizarre shifting Internet conditions and the, methods 70 odd years later for what he apparently thinks constitutes a "genocide and how it is carried it out is completely and utterly irrelevant.

On another forum he'd be deservedly shredded for this silliness.

 

[Wroclaw]

Weren't you just bragging about how stupid you were a year ago? Now you've done quite a bit of research into this topic?

No, I was talking about comparative genocide, not the specifics of the evolution of anti-Jewish killing policy during WWII.

I'm sorry if distinctions are lost on you.

I'm afraid your analogy fails. All these other genocides occurred over a widely scattered area.

Are you kidding?

The Armenian genocide was pretty much limited to present-day Turkey and Syria — and when I say "Turkey," I mean eastern Turkey only. The Rwandan genocide was (obviously) limited to Rwanda, which is one of the smallest countries in Africa.

They didn't involve a victim class that was well integrated into the dominant culture in some places, not so integrated in others.

So what? (And, yes, they did.)

They involved a target group was defined the same way by both the oppressor and the victim and within the victim community themselves.

Depends on the case.

By contrast, the holocaust involved moving the victims from a widely scattered area to a few extremely tiny well defined areas and then killing them.

Only about half the Holocaust meets that definition. The other half of the Jews who were killed were killed within a day's walk from their homes.

The German Jews considered themselves Germans although the Polish and Russian Jews didn't feel quite as integrated. The holocaust victims did not (and do not) agree within their community who is a member of their community and the definition that was used by the people doing the killing doesn't conform to the definition any of the victims themselves used. Oh yeah, another difference is that those other genocides don't require magic to work.

Obnoxious as usual, and still wrong.

 

[Moss]

The only magic ever to graze this discussion is the apparent ability of Jews in the Dead Nazi PR Machine's alternative narrative to sneak past Germans, Soviets and everyone to end up someplace nobody knows while not telling their families.

 

[TSR]

It's only a contradiction if the number of people who died in a gas chamber at Auschwitz is universally agreed to be zero. The only way YOU would see it as a contradiction is if you believe the answer is zero and you believe that everybody else does as well.

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Ummm.



No.


*You* say we cannot know specific numbers.


Then *you* say that number is zero.


The contradiction is entirely *yours*.



Everyone one else agrees that we cannot know to the last person, because the records are not complete.


But that the records we *do* have give us general numbers.


And again, the sad thing is you don't see the difference, being blinded by an overwhelming need to deny those general numbers.
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[LemmyCaution]

Stable, universally agreed upon specific numbers don't exist for the holocaust. That said, the world's foremost experts in death camp investigations carefully considered all the disparate documentary sources at their disposal and conducted extensive onsite investigation to arrive at an estimate of four million deaths right after the war. The only person who would really be in a position to know said that there were only three million deaths. Considering this man had no reason to lie about the death toll, was not coerced in any way, is of impeccable integrity, was clearly motivated by a guilty conscience to confess the truth, and testified under oath, his estimated number of deaths is likely the most accurate. But he changed his mind later, so I've been told. I read somewhere that the documentary evidence shows 405,222 were sent there and 340,000 of them died. I know those numbers are laughed at today even though they're probably closer to the truth than any other estimates. The people at Auschwitz themselves say there were, what is it, 1,100,000? 1,200,000? people murdered there. But nobody expects the historians working at the Auschwitz State Museum to have a clue about what happened at the camp. So we can just ignore those guys. If you're looking for an estimate that is outrageously high but doesn't end in five zeros, one source I know of said that 1,613,455 people were deported to Auschwitz and that 1,417,595 died there. If you're only counting the Jews, 1,433,405 were deported there and 1,352,980 died. I'm quite certain there are a multitude of other figures that vary widely but are considered equally accurate. It depends alot on what needs to be proven.

Those are only official numbers. The truth is that I don't know. You don't know. And an exact figure, down to the last man, is unknowable because all the records didn't survive. The only figure we know for certain is that the number of people who died in a gas chamber at Auschwitz is zero.

Why does Dogzilla act as though his inability to relate these numbers and explain them adds up to a point - other than the point that he can't answer Nick's 2 simple questions? We've seen this over and over with this guy. Instead of giving an honest, responsible answer of how he sees the history - in this case, saying how many deportees he believes were sent to Auschwitz (and why) and stating the number of inmates who died in the camp (and how he knows this) - he starts doing another round of the funky chicken. The act is so transparent, the wonder is he does it. A more honest - but just as delusional - answer was when he said, "I don't know, and I don't care."

Word count: 129

 

[Dogzilla]

None of this answered either of my two questions. Can you try again, baby steps, with question #1:

How many people were deported to Auschwitz?

This question should be perfectly easy; it asks for a number based on the evidence known to you or which you could look up in quite a few places online (assuming you have the wit to go beyond rense.com or zundelsite.org).

It also asks implicitly if you know what figure has been commonly accepted for what is now just over 20 years. Clue: it doesn't appear anywhere in your post above.

Oh of course! I misunderstood the question. I thought you were asking for some of the commonly accepted since 1992 numbers of people deported to Auschwitz. You want the commonly accepted since 1992 numbers of people who were deported to Auschwitz. By that, of course, you mean the most commonly accepted since 1992 number of people who were deported to Auschwitz. So yeah. I know that number. That's easy. Any carbon based life form can find that number. It's the same number that Nizkor, USHMM, and Yad Vashem will tell you if you look on their websites.

This is a good test for weeding out the poseurs: I just told you where I found out how many people were deported to Auschwitz. Can anybody rub two brain cells together and tell me that number?

 

[Clayton Moore]

The only magic ever to graze this discussion is the apparent ability of Jews in the Dead Nazi PR Machine's alternative narrative to sneak past Germans, Soviets and everyone to end up someplace nobody knows while not telling their families.

Hitchcock once observed to himself that if a person does not exist he or she has no family. I'm certain that applies to the missing persons bandied about by Team Holocaust Central.

 

[Moss]

Hitchcock once observed to himself that if a person does not exist he or she has no family. I'm certain that applies to the missing persons bandied about by Team Holocaust Central.

Why are you certain of that?

 

[TSR]

This is a good test for weeding out the poseurs: I just told you where I found out how many people were deported to Auschwitz.

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And yet, once again, managed *not* to say.

Just where, by specific page, on Nizkor, USHMM, or Yad Vashem is the answer listed?


Or are you posting konwing untruths again?
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Can anybody rub two brain cells together and tell me that number?

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Didn't you just say you found the answer?

Or is the problem you don't have requisite number of brain cells?
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[LemmyCaution]

Why on earth does Dogzilla find his inane game is interesting? It's tremendously boring - but it has this to recommend it: it gives us another example of his by-now well-known refusal give straight answers to direct questions.


Word count: 38

 

[Mynott]

Hitchcock once observed to himself that if a person does not exist he or she has no family. I'm certain that applies to the missing persons bandied about by Team Holocaust Central.

And what about those deported to those so called" Transit "Camps at Sobibor and Treblinka on there way to Resettlement centers in the East out there somewhere.Ah yes ,they managed to find their way to principally America after the war.Hmmmm!
They all must have an interesting tale to tell.Have any of the Holohoax Gurus and their followers like yourself being able to locate them?.The U S must be swarming with them.Any memoirs ,media articles published about the "transit " and "resettlement " centers in the East out there.What can you CM tell us about them based on your researches or maybe personal meetings.?

Before a forget The Red Cross ,Friends Serice Committee and other Aid Agencies would be a useful resource.Am sure the Nazis would of facilitated contacts given the benign nature of these camps and settlements.They would be anxious to quell Zionist style rumours and misinformation,surely.!
Have say the Wermacht,SD,RHS, SS etc left any kind of documentation,interviews etc?

 

[tsig]

The only magic ever to graze this discussion is the apparent ability of Jews in the Dead Nazi PR Machine's alternative narrative to sneak past Germans, Soviets and everyone to end up someplace nobody knows while not telling their families.

Almost like they went up in smoke.

 

[tsig]

Oh of course! I misunderstood the question. I thought you were asking for some of the commonly accepted since 1992 numbers of people deported to Auschwitz. You want the commonly accepted since 1992 numbers of people who were deported to Auschwitz. By that, of course, you mean the most commonly accepted since 1992 number of people who were deported to Auschwitz. So yeah. I know that number. That's easy. Any carbon based life form can find that number. It's the same number that Nizkor, USHMM, and Yad Vashem will tell you if you look on their websites.

This is a good test for weeding out the poseurs: I just told you where I found out how many people were deported to Auschwitz. Can anybody rub two brain cells together and tell me that number?

I see no numbers in this post.

 

[Dogzilla]

Why on earth does Dogzilla find his inane game is interesting? It's tremendously boring - but it has this to recommend it: it gives us another example of his by-now well-known refusal give straight answers to direct questions.


Word count: 38

I'll play along with Dr. Terry's games sometimes but you're right that this one isn't very interesting. I'll drop it.

 

[Clayton Moore]

And what about those deported to those so called" Transit "Camps at Sobibor and Treblinka on there way to Resettlement centers in the East out there somewhere.Ah yes ,they managed to find their way to principally America after the war.Hmmmm!
They all must have an interesting tale to tell.Have any of the Holohoax Gurus and their followers like yourself being able to locate them?.The U S must be swarming with them.Any memoirs ,media articles published about the "transit " and "resettlement " centers in the East out there.What can you CM tell us about them based on your researches or maybe personal meetings.?

Before a forget The Red Cross ,Friends Serice Committee and other Aid Agencies would be a useful resource.Am sure the Nazis would of facilitated contacts given the benign nature of these camps and settlements.They would be anxious to quell Zionist style rumours and misinformation,surely.!
Have say the Wermacht,SD,RHS, SS etc left any kind of documentation,interviews etc?

It's likely they ignored the gassing of 1 million noncombatant Jewish children, women, and men, three years running, for some reason or other. And never bothered to tell anyone after the war. I guess people who perform good deeds in a war zone suck when it comes to reporting that millions of people were getting gassed right under their nose.

 

[TSR]

It's likely they ignored the gassing of 1 million noncombatant Jewish children, women, and men, three years running, for some reason or other. And never bothered to tell anyone after the war. I guess people who perform good deeds in a war zone suck when it comes to reporting that millions of people were getting gassed right under their nose.

They could help and did help where they could.

They could not do everything.

What do you suppose your heroes would have done had the Red Cross confronted them?

Why didn't they give the Red Cross full access to all camps, if it was all so innocent?

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Walruses don't even have feet -- how is it that you believe your running away is not going to be noticed?
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[TSR]

I'll play along with Dr. Terry's games sometimes but you're right that this one isn't very interesting. I'll drop it.

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Does it really let you sleep better at night making these kinds of excuses for your inability to back up the lies you post when you're not avoiding straight answers altogether?
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[Mynott]

It's likely they ignored the gassing of 1 million noncombatant Jewish children, women, and men, three years running, for some reason or other. And never bothered to tell anyone after the war. I guess people who perform good deeds in a war zone suck when it comes to reporting that millions of people were getting gassed right under their nose.[/QUOTE

Another evasion.According to the Swansee Conference there were 2.284 million Jews in the General Government..Given the Holohoxer belief system they were mostly deported via" Transit" centers like Treblinka for resettlement.The purpose was at least benign even benevolent.For those reasons alone there must be documentation and a record of this.Where is it?
Most of course survived these R&R type. experiences.They must have things to tell us.As indicated the Red Cross would of being pretty welcome I would think.Again Holohoaxers where are they.? Has the Holohoax Industry made contact with them to back up this narrative.?

 

[LemmyCaution]

I'll play along with Dr. Terry's games sometimes but you're right that this one isn't very interesting. I'll drop it.

Is your reading comprehension ability as poor as you're making out, or are you still playing a game - more of the "I can't answer the questions so I'll make a fuss" game?

Anyway, direct questions like Nick's or the other ones you've been dodging are not a game. Explain to us why your having viewpoints on critical issues in the Holocaust - like the numbers of Jews deported to Auschwitz, the fate of the Jews of the 5 ghettos you were asked about, and so on - constitutes a game. For anyone interested in the Holocaust, these are important topics. Or are you just afraid to make a commitment to a point of view?

Along with your openly stated ignorance of the topics you weigh in on we now have your delusion that avoidance is somehow convincing or interesting.

What is tedious is watching you imagine you're doing a clever dance when what you are truly doing is a cowardly and clumsy dodge act.



Word count: 165

 

[LemmyCaution]

This is truly annoying, the games Dogzilla plays thinking they hide from our view his ignorance and cowardice.

I don't know what number Nick has in mind - I read in the thread that he said he had a number in mind but I took his asking Dogzilla these questions to be a request to Dogzilla to state his viewpoint.

As with the Jaeger Report, since Dogzilla refuses to do say anything worthwhile, I will take the leap. And as with the Jaeger Report summary, anyone who wishes can throw darts at this post - and maybe, in contrast to what happened with the Jaeger Report, we can muster up an actual discussion of the core issues which Nick is trying to raise.

So, not having researched Nick's questions for myself, my viewpoint has been formed by the chapter contributed by Franciszek Piper to the USHMM collection, Anatomy of Auschwitz Death Camp. In this essay, Piper discussed the estimates others have made of deportations and deaths at Auschwitz - and the problems he has with them as well as how he derived his own revised estimates. He noted, too, that his deportation estimate correlates with that of Martin Gilbert in Atlas of the Holocaust and can be obtained by "tallying all the transports" of Jews to Auschwitz listed in that work.

According to Piper, about 1,300,000 people were deported to Auschwitz from at least the following countries: Hungary, Poland, France, the Netherlands, Greece, "Bohemia and Moravia," Slovakia, Belgium, Germany, Austria, Yugoslavia, Italy, Norway, and the USSR.

Piper concluded that, from this total of 1,300,000, about 213,000 inmates were transferred from Auschwitz and about 1,500 were released, 500 escaped, and 8,000 were liberated by the Red Army - meaning that almost 223,000 inmates left Auschwitz alive, leaving us with approximately 1,100,000 to consider.

Only about 400,000 prisoners were registered in the camp records - 300,000 or so being non-Jews and nearly 100,000 being Jews. (As Dogzilla tried to do in his first reply to Nick, deniers often ignore transport information and try passing off this 400,000 as the total number of inmates.) The number of unregistered non-Jews was at most, according to Piper, a few 10s of 1000s; by far, the unregistered prisoners were Jews.

Of the total number deported to the camp, Piper estimated that 85% were Jews - or about 1,100,000. Piper estimated that 135,000 Jews were transferred at various times from Auschwitz to other camps, either for labor or during the evacuation of the Auschwitz complex in 1945.

In Piper's view, we are left to account for about 1,100,000 prisoners who entered Auschwitz, about 960,000 or so of these being Jews transported to the camp.





Word count: 447