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Merged General Holocaust denial discussion thread

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Not a book, but I could see someone recommending Goebbels' "Totaler Krieg - Kurzester Krieg" speech at the Berlin Sportspalast on 18 February 1943, following the Germans' debacle at Stalingrad. I re-read the speech recently and noticed the arguments below concerning the use of equivalent, yet not identical, methods to those of the Bolsheviks and the Jews behind them:
The goal of Bolshevism is Jewish world revolution. They want to bring chaos to the Reich and Europe, using the resulting hopelessness and desperation to establish their international, Bolshevist-concealed capitalist tyranny. . . . I do not need to say what that would mean for the German people. A Bolshevization of the Reich would mean the liquidation of our entire intelligentsia and leadership, and the descent of our workers into Bolshevist-Jewish slavery. . . . No one should believe that Bolshevism would stop at the borders of the Reich, were it to be victorious. The goal of its aggressive policies and wars is the Bolshevization of every land and people in the world. . . . The German people, in any event, is unwilling to bow to this danger. Behind the oncoming Soviet divisions we see the Jewish liquidation commandos, and behind them terror, the specter of mass starvation and complete anarchy. International Jewry is the devilish ferment of decomposition that finds cynical satisfaction in plunging the world into the deepest chaos and destroying ancient cultures that it played no role in building. . . . We also know our historic responsibility. Two thousand years of Western civilization are in danger. . . . We see Jewry as a direct threat to every nation. We do not care what other peoples do about the danger. What we do to defend ourselves is our own business, however, and we will not tolerate objections from others. Jewry is a contagious infection. Enemy nations may raise hypocritical protests against our measures against Jewry and cry crocodile tears, but that will not stop us from doing that which is necessary. Germany, in any event, has no intention of bowing before this threat, but rather intends to take the most radical measures, if necessary, in good time (After this sentence, the chants of the audience prevent the minister from going on for several minutes). . . . My firm conviction is that we cannot overcome the Bolshevist danger unless we use equivalent, though not identical, methods. . . . I reject with contempt the enemy’s claim that we are imitating Bolshevism. We do not want to imitate Bolshevism, we want to defeat it, with whatever means are necessary. . . .
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With this view of things, where would the National Socialists draw the line?

Goebbels says they wouldn't be drawing any lines: the Nazis have gone all in and the German people are now to join them totally - participating in the use of the most radical measures possible against the Jews. For this, says Goebbels, the National Socialist method is to adopt from the Bolsheviks such ideas as killing off their enemies' leadership and to take from the Jews such ideas as mass starvation of the enemy population and liquidation commandos, only turned against the Jews themselves instead of against the German people.

Yep, it's only a speech, I know, to whip people up, and Jaeger's report was only a report . . . Still and all, for a public speech, Goebbels, who said that it was time to level with the German people ("The German people, raised, educated and disciplined by National Socialism, can bear the whole truth. It knows the gravity of the situation, and its leadership can therefore demand the necessary hard measures, yes even the hardest measures."), certainly gave a radical explanation of what people were supposed to get whipped up about and of what was being done to deal with the Jewish "contagious infection. It's allmost as though he were trying to draw the people into complicity with the radical acts of the Nazis that knew no bounds. No crocodile tears for National Socialism's self-defined enemies from Goebbels, for sure.

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Clayton Moore said:
Let it go. Team Holocaust is beat. If you think the WWII Red Cross ignored or didn't know about 3 Jewish million people being gassed, whatever.......
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Responding to someone asking why you're dodging questions by dodging the question.
 
Mynott said:
As indicated CM your IRC information does not address The question.s I'll try again.
If Jews were merely deported and held at "Transit" camps like Treblinka then where exactly were they deported to.What became of them?.Who was responsible for their security being highly likely in a Combat zone.?Did The SS,SD and ir Wehrmacht keep records and documents of these settlements.?Were the IRC given an opportunity to visit these facilities.? Lots there CM ,dogzilla. to sift through and sort out.
Again please answer directly The questions .?!
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My point is that if the 3 million were not gassed to death, building a mythical trail to that end is asinine.
 
Clayton Moore said:
My point is that if the 3 million were not gassed to death, building a mythical trail to that end is asinine.
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No, the point is that you cannot answer those questions, because doing so would reveal that your baseless assertions above are, indeed, just baseless assertions after all, contradicted by all the actual evidence.
 
ANTPogo said:
No, the point is that you cannot answer those questions, because doing so would reveal that your baseless assertions above are, indeed, just baseless assertions after all, contradicted by all the actual evidence.
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No, the point is those people went to the same place the two and half million Auschwitz victims went in the late 1980s. If you can't find them there, go look in Israel, New York, Miami, Los Angeles or hundreds of other places around the world.
 
Dogzilla said:
No, the point is those people went to the same place the two and half million Auschwitz victims went in the late 1980s. If you can't find them there, go look in Israel, New York, Miami, Los Angeles or hundreds of other places around the world.
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If this is your assertion, then you back it up. No stupid car analogies this time. You go look, and provide us with evidence that Jews who we say died at Auschwitz in reality lived their postwar lives in any of those places.
 
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Dogzilla said:
No, the point is those people went to the same place the two and half million Auschwitz victims went in the late 1980s. If you can't find them there, go look in Israel, New York, Miami, Los Angeles or hundreds of other places around the world.
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Two very simple questions

1) How many people were deported to Auschwitz from 1940-1945?
2) How many people died at Auschwitz from 1940-1945?

Saying 'I don't know' or 'this is unknowable' is not an answer to either question.
 
Clayton Moore said:
My point is that if the 3 million were not gassed to death, building a mythical trail to that end is asinine.
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But no one asked you to state what you think didn't happen to European Jews - you were asked to state what you think did happen to them - and to give details on how it happened and who did what to make it happen.

This isn't a difficult question. You should stop dodging it. Your dodging is obvious and makes Revisionism not only look terrible but appear cowardly.

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Nick Terry said:
Two very simple questions

1) How many people were deported to Auschwitz from 1940-1945?
2) How many people died at Auschwitz from 1940-1945?

Saying 'I don't know' or 'this is unknowable' is not an answer to either question.
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Stable, universally agreed upon specific numbers don't exist for the holocaust. That said, the world's foremost experts in death camp investigations carefully considered all the disparate documentary sources at their disposal and conducted extensive onsite investigation to arrive at an estimate of four million deaths right after the war. The only person who would really be in a position to know said that there were only three million deaths. Considering this man had no reason to lie about the death toll, was not coerced in any way, is of impeccable integrity, was clearly motivated by a guilty conscience to confess the truth, and testified under oath, his estimated number of deaths is likely the most accurate. But he changed his mind later, so I've been told. I read somewhere that the documentary evidence shows 405,222 were sent there and 340,000 of them died. I know those numbers are laughed at today even though they're probably closer to the truth than any other estimates. The people at Auschwitz themselves say there were, what is it, 1,100,000? 1,200,000? people murdered there. But nobody expects the historians working at the Auschwitz State Museum to have a clue about what happened at the camp. So we can just ignore those guys. If you're looking for an estimate that is outrageously high but doesn't end in five zeros, one source I know of said that 1,613,455 people were deported to Auschwitz and that 1,417,595 died there. If you're only counting the Jews, 1,433,405 were deported there and 1,352,980 died. I'm quite certain there are a multitude of other figures that vary widely but are considered equally accurate. It depends alot on what needs to be proven.

Those are only official numbers. The truth is that I don't know. You don't know. And an exact figure, down to the last man, is unknowable because all the records didn't survive. The only figure we know for certain is that the number of people who died in a gas chamber at Auschwitz is zero.
 
Dogzilla said:
The truth is that I don't know. You don't know. And an exact figure, down to the last man, is unknowable because all the records didn't survive. The only figure we know for certain is that the number of people who died in a gas chamber at Auschwitz is zero.
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And the sad thing is, folks, DZ apparently really doesn't see a contradiction between the first sentences of the para and the last...
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Just as sad is his trying to play old games, for example, among the others, that the 405,222 prisoners said to have been "entered in the books" or "registered" is the same as the number of people deported to the camp by trains.

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Dogzilla said:
Stable, universally agreed upon specific numbers don't exist for the holocaust...
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...or any other genocide or similar incidence of mass killing of the twentieth century.

I've done quite a bit of research into this topic. Armenian genocide estimates run from 600,000 to 1.5 million. Rwanda half a million to a million. Stalinist and Maoist "politicides" have, by far, the widest margins of all.

So why should the Holocaust be any different?
 
TSR said:
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And the sad thing is, folks, DZ apparently really doesn't see a contradiction between the first sentences of the para and the last...
.
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It's only a contradiction if the number of people who died in a gas chamber at Auschwitz is universally agreed to be zero. The only way YOU would see it as a contradiction is if you believe the answer is zero and you believe that everybody else does as well.
 
Our resident deniers seem to be expending an awful lot of effort avoiding what should be very straightforward answers to simple questions if their assertions about the Holocaust are even remotely true.
 
So Dogzilla - how many deaths make it alright. 1 million 3 million - give us a number to work with
 
Wroclaw said:
...or any other genocide or similar incidence of mass killing of the twentieth century.

I've done quite a bit of research into this topic. Armenian genocide estimates run from 600,000 to 1.5 million. Rwanda half a million to a million. Stalinist and Maoist "politicides" have, by far, the widest margins of all.

So why should the Holocaust be any different?
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Weren't you just bragging about how stupid you were a year ago? Now you've done quite a bit of research into this topic?

I'm afraid your analogy fails. All these other genocides occurred over a widely scattered area. They didn't involve a victim class that was well integrated into the dominant culture in some places, not so integrated in others. They involved a target group was defined the same way by both the oppressor and the victim and within the victim community themselves. By contrast, the holocaust involved moving the victims from a widely scattered area to a few extremely tiny well defined areas and then killing them. The German Jews considered themselves Germans although the Polish and Russian Jews didn't feel quite as integrated. The holocaust victims did not (and do not) agree within their community who is a member of their community and the definition that was used by the people doing the killing doesn't conform to the definition any of the victims themselves used. Oh yeah, another difference is that those other genocides don't require magic to work.
 
Dogzilla said:
Stable, universally agreed upon specific numbers don't exist for the holocaust. That said, the world's foremost experts in death camp investigations carefully considered all the disparate documentary sources at their disposal and conducted extensive onsite investigation to arrive at an estimate of four million deaths right after the war. The only person who would really be in a position to know said that there were only three million deaths. Considering this man had no reason to lie about the death toll, was not coerced in any way, is of impeccable integrity, was clearly motivated by a guilty conscience to confess the truth, and testified under oath, his estimated number of deaths is likely the most accurate. But he changed his mind later, so I've been told. I read somewhere that the documentary evidence shows 405,222 were sent there and 340,000 of them died. I know those numbers are laughed at today even though they're probably closer to the truth than any other estimates. The people at Auschwitz themselves say there were, what is it, 1,100,000? 1,200,000? people murdered there. But nobody expects the historians working at the Auschwitz State Museum to have a clue about what happened at the camp. So we can just ignore those guys. If you're looking for an estimate that is outrageously high but doesn't end in five zeros, one source I know of said that 1,613,455 people were deported to Auschwitz and that 1,417,595 died there. If you're only counting the Jews, 1,433,405 were deported there and 1,352,980 died. I'm quite certain there are a multitude of other figures that vary widely but are considered equally accurate. It depends alot on what needs to be proven.

Those are only official numbers. The truth is that I don't know. You don't know. And an exact figure, down to the last man, is unknowable because all the records didn't survive. The only figure we know for certain is that the number of people who died in a gas chamber at Auschwitz is zero.
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None of this answered either of my two questions. Can you try again, baby steps, with question #1:

How many people were deported to Auschwitz?

This question should be perfectly easy; it asks for a number based on the evidence known to you or which you could look up in quite a few places online (assuming you have the wit to go beyond rense.com or zundelsite.org).

It also asks implicitly if you know what figure has been commonly accepted for what is now just over 20 years. Clue: it doesn't appear anywhere in your post above.
 
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