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Merged General Holocaust denial discussion thread

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Clayton Moore said:
And yet the biggest name representatives of the Holocaust, the Simon, the Elie, and the Spielberg, have lied with aplomb and been rewarded for it. And have never admitted to their lies.
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And if they were the only sources of the Holocaust you might have a point. It seems you should also be railing against the Titanic sinking because James Cameron made an inaccurate movie about the event
 
Clayton Moore said:
And yet the biggest name representatives of the Holocaust, the Simon, the Elie, and the Spielberg, have lied with aplomb and been rewarded for it. And have never admitted to their lies.
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The biggest "representatives" of the holocaust? On which planet, because they certainly aren't on Earth.
 
Clayton Moore said:
This tactic always reminds me of the adult who wowed us kids by making the buffalo on a nickel pee.
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The tactic of showing that you deniers know absolutely nothing about the history you desperately try to wish away remind you of something that happened in your childhood?

Anything else that happened in your childhood that we need to be aware of?
 
Clayton Moore said:
So why aren't they being discredited by the other sources of the Holocaust you mentioned?

Why are their lies allowed to be told as history?
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Because frankly no one cares - If the Holocaust was suddenly proved a hoax, what changes for people - the answer is absolutely nothing, other than the casualty figures from WW2 would revise downwards and a few text books get re-written.

And what have you done to dispel these 'lies' You have resisted all calls to take any action at all to champion your calls. So someone who has the greatest emotional investment in the cause cant be bothered, why should others.

You might still have a point if this was the only example of people exaggerating or changing their involvement in historical events. No one seems to care that Santa Claus is an invention of Coca Cola, or that Columbus didn't discover America.
 
Clayton Moore said:
Pray tell what do you think that means?
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It doesn't mean what you apparently think it means, that's for sure. Those two statements are not contradictory, or even in conflict in any way. Both, in fact, are completely true.

Spielberg, Wiesel, et al are not the only sources for our knowledge of the Holocaust, and you have spectacularly failed to demonstrate any lies.
 
Clayton Moore said:
So why aren't they being discredited by the other sources of the Holocaust you mentioned?
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They are, by the simple fact that those other sources exist.

You seem to be confusing "discredit" with "whine all the time about a bigger fuss not being made regarding sources that no one but you claim to be authoritative".

But not a peep from you about George Washington not throwing a silver dollar. Or the fact that all delegates didn't actually sign the DoI on July 4th. Or Dewey not actually having defeated Truman.

And why is that?

The answer is obvious to everyone here: because those cases don't give you a chance to complain about Jooos.
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LemmyCaution said:
This is truly annoying, the games Dogzilla plays thinking they hide from our view his ignorance and cowardice.

I don't know what number Nick has in mind - I read in the thread that he said he had a number in mind but I took his asking Dogzilla these questions to be a request to Dogzilla to state his viewpoint.

As with the Jaeger Report, since Dogzilla refuses to do say anything worthwhile, I will take the leap. And as with the Jaeger Report summary, anyone who wishes can throw darts at this post - and maybe, in contrast to what happened with the Jaeger Report, we can muster up an actual discussion of the core issues which Nick is trying to raise.

So, not having researched Nick's questions for myself, my viewpoint has been formed by the chapter contributed by Franciszek Piper to the USHMM collection, Anatomy of Auschwitz Death Camp. In this essay, Piper discussed the estimates others have made of deportations and deaths at Auschwitz - and the problems he has with them as well as how he derived his own revised estimates. He noted, too, that his deportation estimate correlates with that of Martin Gilbert in Atlas of the Holocaust and can be obtained by "tallying all the transports" of Jews to Auschwitz listed in that work.

According to Piper, about 1,300,000 people were deported to Auschwitz from at least the following countries: Hungary, Poland, France, the Netherlands, Greece, "Bohemia and Moravia," Slovakia, Belgium, Germany, Austria, Yugoslavia, Italy, Norway, and the USSR.

Piper concluded that, from this total of 1,300,000, about 213,000 inmates were transferred from Auschwitz and about 1,500 were released, 500 escaped, and 8,000 were liberated by the Red Army - meaning that almost 223,000 inmates left Auschwitz alive, leaving us with approximately 1,100,000 to consider.

Only about 400,000 prisoners were registered in the camp records - 300,000 or so being non-Jews and nearly 100,000 being Jews. (As Dogzilla tried to do in his first reply to Nick, deniers often ignore transport information and try passing off this 400,000 as the total number of inmates.) The number of unregistered non-Jews was at most, according to Piper, a few 10s of 1000s; by far, the unregistered prisoners were Jews.

Of the total number deported to the camp, Piper estimated that 85% were Jews - or about 1,100,000. Piper estimated that 135,000 Jews were transferred at various times from Auschwitz to other camps, either for labor or during the evacuation of the Auschwitz complex in 1945.

In Piper's view, we are left to account for about 1,100,000 prisoners who entered Auschwitz, about 960,000 or so of these being Jews transported to the camp.
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I'm sorry but that answer is incorrect. As I mentioned in my initial reply, 1.1 million is one of the numbers you might hear. However, our judges informed me that none of the numbers I mentioned was the correct one. Thank you for playing. Better luck next time.
 
Dogzilla said:
I'm sorry but that answer is incorrect. As I mentioned in my initial reply, 1.1 million is one of the numbers you might hear. However, our judges informed me that none of the numbers I mentioned was the correct one. Thank you for playing. Better luck next time.
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It's not a game, and your initial reply did not answer the question, which is what "the judges" pointed out to you.

In your considered opinion what *single number* represents the best guess as to the number of people sent to Auschwitz, and on what are you basing that opinion?

If your answer is "I don't know and I don't care" and you cannot substantively critique anyone elses' number, then why do you continue to waste everyones' time with willfully ignorant crap?
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Dogzilla said:
I'm sorry but that answer is incorrect. As I mentioned in my initial reply, 1.1 million is one of the numbers you might hear. However, our judges informed me that none of the numbers I mentioned was the correct one. Thank you for playing. Better luck next time.
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The first question, the one I replied to, was
1) How many people were deported to Auschwitz from 1940-1945?.
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Nick even boldfaced this question for you after your wiseass reply, to help you focus and be serious.

You did indeed throw in the number 1,100,000 (as one estimate you claimed some give for the number murdered in the camp, not deported to it), and that is definitely not the number of people deported to Auschwitz which Piper estimated, accepted by nearly everyone, and stated in my post where I wrote, as you have quoted me,
According to Piper, about 1,300,000 people were deported to Auschwitz . . .
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Or can you not figure out why the number deported to the camp is important?

It is astonishing that you think you gave the correct estimate for the number deported in - let alone a sensible, coherent answer. The correct estimate of the number of people deported to Auschwitz does not, of course, appear anywhere in your initial reply. It is hard to know what you think you are doing. Oh well. What you are clearly accomplishing is to make a mockery of this discussion - and, better yet, denial.
 
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I finish with a quote from Gilad Atzmon in "The Wandering Who? A study of Jewish Identity Politics". Zero Books, Washington. 2011, page 174:
When I was young and naive, I regarded history as serious academic matter. As I understood it, history had something to do with truth seeking, documents, chronology and facts. I was conviced that history aimed to convey a sensible account of the past based on methodical research. I also believed that an understanding of the past could throw some light over our present and even help us to shape a better future.
I grew up in the Jewish state and it took me a while to understand that the Jewish historical narrative is very different. In the Jewish intellectual insular world, one first decides what the historical morale is, then one invents a past to fit.
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No further comment.
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I have little doubt that you are distorting that comment. Likely by omission. Although it is nce to see that the trope of Jew as Satanic liar continues to flourish in some minds.
 
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