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JFK Conspiracy Theories: It Never Ends

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You have presented no physical evidence in support of your Lone Nutter viewpoint other than altered, forged and substituted photos and x-rays.

First of all, this does not answer the question in any ways shape or form. How does your assessment of the evidence provided AGAINST your case change the fact that you have not supplied any FOR your case that meets the standard you expect from others?

It has no relevance. You are complaining about a whole different issue to disgusise this point. It is fooling nobody. Noted.

Also:
I have removed the words you have yet to prove. Show me what, in those photographs and x-rays you feel proves them to be altered, forges or substitiuted and I will consider the evidence. Your claiming it is so, on the grounds they conflict with your narrative is not proof. Show me the photographic artefacts in the images that prove your assertions, or your assertions will continue to be meaningless.

SO let's try again, this is a real simple task Robert, ALL you have to do is produce evidence for YOUR OWN ASSERTION that meets the same standard you expect from others. One piece of evidence that can not be hand waved away by my personal belief that somebody is lying, mistaken, or part of a conspiracy who can not be trusted. If you wont trust some witnesses, don't trust any. Supply physical evidence beyond argument or doubt.

Where is it?
 
Seriously, the Robster demands we produce absolute proof of a Lone Nut, but when asked to supply the same for his own allegations he can't.

He claims anybody, or any evidence, that contradicts his preffered narrative to be faked, forged or tampered with (with out proving it at all). When asked why his own narrative is immune from the possibility of being the product of liars, white washers or the like, he keeps repeating that blah blah witness saw the body before blah blah. And? They could still be telling lies. If it is possible some humans lie, it is possible HIS advocates lie. If he can dismiss other sources because he doesn't trust them, he should dismiss all claims in case he can't trust them. As his narrative is based entirely upon claims it leaves him with nothing.

Saying "Well you aint either!" Is not the same as saying "Why yes, here is my evidence, here is why I know these people to have been honest and correct."

Who does Robert believe would be fooled by this? I can supply no evidence. I can supply infinite evidence. He still hasn't supplied anything but claims.

He can argue what is acceptable in a court of law. Or in his fantasy land court of law. Why? People who want those responsible for conspiracies charged are insane like the "Bug Man" remember. I have, and will continue, to expect Robert to provide evidence required for historical research. If all he can do is argue that his definition of "material" evidence is the legal one, colour me unimpressed. What has been required to convince me, and other sceptics has been repeated over and over again. He can quibble all he likes, there is no room for misunderstanding. No room for misinterpretation. I can call it Physical other than Material, it boils down to the same thing: More than a claim by a witness.

In seventy five pages the requirements have not changed. If you want to call a photo a forgery, don't discuss if who does or does not remember it being taken. Show me what aspects of the photo can not have been produced any other way than through fakery. Show me the marks where the gloss was tampered with, or the misalignment of superimposition, show me the PHYSICAL evidence of fakery.

If he wants to claim the Z film shows anything other than it portends to, then show me the skips of missing frames, the emulsion where this fantasy rear exit wound is painted over to become a small entry wound. Show me why there is ejecta BEHIND other objects in the film for the established entry wound. At the very least decide on a single coherent story. Was the ejecta painted on, or from the apparent "entry" wound? Was it from a frangible bullet as claimed before? If so why does that not in any way known to physics, match the "infaliabl" witnesses he quoted? And why do neither match the path through the head Robert himself illustrated?
 
I just heard about the new JFK tapes on Piers Morgan. Can a skeptic tell me why they don't matter?

Anything that can be added to the documented record matters to some degree. I have listened to the first hour and forty minutes of the full tape and did not find anything that really stood out one way or another. Yes, there is an attempt by a colonel to reach General Lemay via radiophone patch, but that could literally mean anything. The meterology patch regarding flying through tornadoes and such was a new one on me.

Two things really stuck out for me. First, despite how incredibly advanced the technology was for the time, it really was unreliable in connecting ground to air for communications. There is a great chunk of the tape that they simply cannot understand each other as topics of where the autopsy will be and how to get JFK there are going on. Plans are being made and then remade based on who was talking to who. Clearly, it was a very confusing afternoon and the thought of loading JFK onto a helicopter is rather odd since they could barely get him on the plane. Add the confusion between Walter Reed and Bethesda as the autopsy site and it really is amazing just how people kept their tempers in check with the added frustration of using not great equipment.

Second, the great composure shown by the radio operator at Andrews had on that day. The system was clearly being pushed to the max as everyone was trying to confer with everyone else. This must have come as close to war as the system was designed to do and using just three single side band channels, which is almost nothing, to pull what they did out of it is truly nothing short of amazing. The professionalism shown is off the charts. These people were under great duress and did get things accomplished.

Now, on the conspiracy angle, it is not a complete record of events. They used three channels continuously for about three hours once Air Force One was airborne. So in reality, there are about nine or so hours of air to ground conversation that happened that afternoon and we have a record of about two hours. The first few minutes of the recording has the contacts between Andrews and Secretary Rusk's flight turning around over the Pacific and headed for Honolulu.

In what I've heard, nothing comes up about Oswald or any investigation as the conversations are about where JFK would go, what Johnson was going to do once on the ground, getting the press together for the landing, and flying over storms in the South. There really is nothing incriminating about any of that.

It's also clear that this recording must have been voice activated and somehow bounced from channel to channel. While a full recording of everything that went on that flight would be ideal, the fact that we have that much of it is amazing. Does anyone know if recordings were routinely made of those circuits outside of whatever LBJ wanted recorded?

I don't think that this tape will change any minds.
 
Dr. Kemp Clark, Associate Professor and Chairman of Neurosurgery:
"There was a large wound beginning in the right occiput extending into the parietal region." "Both cerebral and cerebellar tissues were extruding from the wound."

So muchfor Dr.Clark's non-observations.
beginning [bɪˈgɪnɪŋ] n1. a start; commencement
2. (often plural) a first or early part or stage
3. the place where or time when something starts
4. an origin; source
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/beginning

Definitely an entrance wound from the rear. End thread.
 
Seriously, the Robster demands we produce absolute proof of a Lone Nut, but when asked to supply the same for his own allegations he can't.

He claims anybody, or any evidence, that contradicts his preffered narrative to be faked, forged or tampered with (with out proving it at all). When asked why his own narrative is immune from the possibility of being the product of liars, white washers or the like, he keeps repeating that blah blah witness saw the body before blah blah. And? They could still be telling lies. If it is possible some humans lie, it is possible HIS advocates lie. If he can dismiss other sources because he doesn't trust them, he should dismiss all claims in case he can't trust them. As his narrative is based entirely upon claims it leaves him with nothing.

Saying "Well you aint either!" Is not the same as saying "Why yes, here is my evidence, here is why I know these people to have been honest and correct."

Who does Robert believe would be fooled by this? I can supply no evidence. I can supply infinite evidence. He still hasn't supplied anything but claims.

He can argue what is acceptable in a court of law. Or in his fantasy land court of law. Why? People who want those responsible for conspiracies charged are insane like the "Bug Man" remember. I have, and will continue, to expect Robert to provide evidence required for historical research. If all he can do is argue that his definition of "material" evidence is the legal one, colour me unimpressed. What has been required to convince me, and other sceptics has been repeated over and over again. He can quibble all he likes, there is no room for misunderstanding. No room for misinterpretation. I can call it Physical other than Material, it boils down to the same thing: More than a claim by a witness.

In seventy five pages the requirements have not changed. If you want to call a photo a forgery, don't discuss if who does or does not remember it being taken. Show me what aspects of the photo can not have been produced any other way than through fakery. Show me the marks where the gloss was tampered with, or the misalignment of superimposition, show me the PHYSICAL evidence of fakery.

If he wants to claim the Z film shows anything other than it portends to, then show me the skips of missing frames, the emulsion where this fantasy rear exit wound is painted over to become a small entry wound. Show me why there is ejecta BEHIND other objects in the film for the established entry wound. At the very least decide on a single coherent story. Was the ejecta painted on, or from the apparent "entry" wound? Was it from a frangible bullet as claimed before? If so why does that not in any way known to physics, match the "infaliabl" witnesses he quoted? And why do neither match the path through the head Robert himself illustrated?

The "egjecta" was blown into the face of motorcyle cop Bobby Hargis, riding in back of the limo. Home movies don't show a whole lot, even if un-altered.
 
First of all, this does not answer the question in any ways shape or form. How does your assessment of the evidence provided AGAINST your case change the fact that you have not supplied any FOR your case that meets the standard you expect from others?

It has no relevance. You are complaining about a whole different issue to disgusise this point. It is fooling nobody. Noted.

Also:
I have removed the words you have yet to prove. Show me what, in those photographs and x-rays you feel proves them to be altered, forges or substitiuted and I will consider the evidence. Your claiming it is so, on the grounds they conflict with your narrative is not proof. Show me the photographic artefacts in the images that prove your assertions, or your assertions will continue to be meaningless.

SO let's try again, this is a real simple task Robert, ALL you have to do is produce evidence for YOUR OWN ASSERTION that meets the same standard you expect from others. One piece of evidence that can not be hand waved away by my personal belief that somebody is lying, mistaken, or part of a conspiracy who can not be trusted. If you wont trust some witnesses, don't trust any. Supply physical evidence beyond argument or doubt.

Where is it?

40 plus witnesses is a slam dunk in a court of law and you know it. On the other hand, you and your cadre of LN's haven't even been able to prove LHO even fired a shot.
 
The "egjecta" was blown into the face of motorcyle cop Bobby Hargis, riding in back of the limo. Home movies don't show a whole lot, even if un-altered.

That is no excuse for ignoring what it does show.

It shows the directional cone of trajectories of the ejecta. This has been pointed out before. In simpleton speak we can see how wide the cloud of ejecta is, and know how big a hole must be for mass to escape it in those directions and all the directions between.

A little entry wound like the one you insist was there, because your favourite doctors say so don't allow a wide arch of trajectories. Even if your backwash explanation was not already defying newtonian physics by sucking back more mass against the path of impact than the trauma wave was pushing ahead there is no way for ejecta to leave the skull in that many directions and that volume (note the distinction between mass and volume) from the hole described.

Remember Robert you know this, it is why you claimed there was a frangible bullet. But that would allow for the mess, but would cause a greater, seemingly invisible, wound on exiting. It would also contradict your doctors claims of a small entry wound.

Both can not be true at the same time. Assuming you want to convince me one is true, and as, unlike you, i live in a world where matter does not pass through other solid matter with out trace, such as a large enough hole, which would you like me to consider the evidence for, and which will you retract as a falsehood or mistake?

Then supply at least one piece of physical evidence for it, that meets the same standard you expect from the "lone nuts".
 
40 plus witnesses is a slam dunk in a court of law and you know it. On the other hand, you and your cadre of LN's haven't even been able to prove LHO even fired a shot.

I didn't ask for what counts in a court of law. I asked for evidence that meets the same standard as you demand from Lone Nuts. Any witness that has been offered to you has been declared a liar, whitewasher or faliable.

Ergo these witnesses of yours can be dismissed because I feel they liars, whitewashers, part of a conspiracy, etc.

I also asked for Physical Evidence. Their testemony is not physical. I even explained i am not interested in this as a legal issue but a historical one.

So no more excuses, produce physical evidence FOR your prefered version that meets the same standards you expect AGAINST it. Or admit your own narrative is unsupported by your own standard.

Conversely admit your witnesses can NOT be considered a slam dunk, because as we all know a single witness against (let alone a plethora of documentary, photographic and filmed witnesses, expert testimony and other physical evidence) will instill reasonable doubt. As you have yet to prove anything other a disagreement of testemony, with no grounds to consider your preffered narrative to be inately more accurate or honest, and rely on unfounded defamations of other experts with equal weight to their claims, there are no grounds to consider you to have a slam dunk, proof, or a case.
 
You know what is a bigger slam dunk than a meer 40 eye witnesses in court?

Film, so you can see the wound yourself, and not rely on subjective opinion of a guy who is not a pathologist, and 39 other people who arent pathologists and didnt inspect the back of jfks head.

Photos of the wounds. Both taken immediately after the fatal shot, and at the autopsy, including those Robert himself submitted.

The rifle, shell casings and fingerprints.

Photos of the killer, holding the murder weapons.

The reciepts for the murder weapons.

The eyewitnesses who saw the "heroic" killer murder a policeman.

The witnesses who saw him try to murder another policeman.

The body, as identified by the victims own brother.

Who cares about 40 witnesses when they can be dismissed by calling them "whitewashers" on a whim?
Either ALL witness testimony is infaliable, or it is all faliable. Witnesses are not dismissed because Robert disagrees with them. Including those who performed the autopsy that contradicts his conclusions. Including Zapruda, who Robert has never given any reason to doubt. Including who witnesses who did indeed see the shooter in the TSBD and not the grassy knoll.
 
Perhaps you have forgotten your own claims about how this "jet" effect works.

Prey tell, how does mass get sucked back out of a wound, with out extruding from it?

He's getting boring now. Like the monkey at the zoo throwing poop, we stop and point and laugh at his antics but eventually we move on to the next exhibit. You can't convince the monkey to not throw his poop.
 
40 plus witnesses is a slam dunk in a court of law and you know it. On the other hand, you and your cadre of LN's haven't even been able to prove LHO even fired a shot.

I hope you are not counting Doctor Jenkins among them.

By your own admission, Dr. Jenkins put the head wound "on the right side of the head".

Not the back of the head, the right side.

Precisely where we see it in the z-film and the autopsy photos.

You do remember posting the below, right? English is your native tongue, correct?

Marion Jenkins, (Professor And Chairman Of Anaesthesiology):

"There was a great laceration on the right side of the head (temporal and occipital)...even to the extent that the cerebellum had protruded from the wound." "I really think part of the cerebellum, as I recognized it, was herniated from the wound...."
 
So as Roberts like fantasizing about courtrooms, but seems to be stuck in a world where court works to the rules of Matlock instead of, you know, the law, let's consider for a second how witnesses in court work. Is the world, as Robert thinks, inclined to reject physical evidence on the basis of eye witnesses?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CSI_effect

Nope. The exact opposite.
[qoute]In particular, prosecutors have reported feeling pressured to provide DNA evidence even when eyewitness testimony is available[/quote]
See also:
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/02/10/eveningnews/main673060.shtml

So instead of this being Matlcok where a Good Guy Witness can inexplicably overturn the pesky Physical Evidence the bad guys use to try and frame the defendant, the reality is eye witnesses being discredited by physical evidence. This is how juries know if you are a telling a lie: They look at the physical evidence.

The other great myth Robert has fallen for, in his "slam dunk" is that more witnesses equate to better witnesses. I'm afraid this is simply not true. One witness can tip the balance of feelings in a jury in an instant. Lots of witnesses who are not "great" will have a negative effect. Imagine if all 40 witnesses are handed the photos we have from the autopsy and are asked:
"Is that the President in these photographs?" Yes. Or it appears to be. LHOs prosecutor is scoring a slam dunk. "Are those the same wounds you saw?" There is no wrong answer he can get from that question. No? Then how can that be? Or, You don't Know? Nothing but net. Yes? Even better.

But let's assume he "played fair" by the rules Robert seems to think occur. He is worried the photo is invalidated by the witness and not the other way around. Pretend you are in the jury and you here this exchange not once, not five times, but forty times. Every day for weeks your life consists of forty witnesses dragged to the bar to go through this cross examination:

DA: So you were on duty at the hospital when the President was administered?
Witness X: Yes. That is correct.
DA: It must have been a lot of pressure.
WX: Sure was.
DA: You were one of the team trying to save his life?
WX: Yes.
DA: Then I would like to thank you, on behalf of us all, for your hard work.
WX: Thanks.
DA: How big was the emergency room where he was treated?
WX: I don't know of the top of my head sir.
DA: As big as this court?
WX: No *laughs* I wish.
DA: How about the office down the hall?
WX: I would say that was closer, maybe a bit bigger.
DA: So, by the time you and the doctors were in there, it was quite cosy, with the gurney with the president on, and all the equipment?
WX: Sure was. We get used to it. We work around each other.
DA: So you got a good look at the wound?
WX: Yes sir. All things considered.
DA: Well, let's consider all things sir. Did the surgeons stop work so you could look?
WX: No sir. They were saving a mans life.
DA: Which meant they were working on the wound?
WX: Yes sir.
DA: So their hands were in the way, and the rest of them. Did they let you pick up the back of his head for a look?
WX: No.
DA: Did you have time to stop and pull out a ruler to measure the wounds?
WX: No sir.
DA: How long did you stop and stare at the wound for?
WX: As I said, we were saving his life.
DA: So you had no time to take accurate measurements, photographs, or the like, and there was always other people between you and the wound. How many?
WX: It depends. Nobody was spectating sir. As I said, we had a life to save.
DA: Did you clean the blood away to accurately assess the size of the wound?
WX: No.
DA: Are you a trained pathologist?
WX: No.
DA: Are you aware that there are 39 other people who are due to testify on this matter? Were they all in that room at the same time, or were they moving around?
WX: It was hectic sir.
DA: So none of them had time to stop and take measurements either? Everybody was in the way of everybody else?

At that point, it doesn't matter what the Witness says, people were too busy saving a life, and there was no way for 40 people to crowd around and stare at JFK, whose head was not even lifted to inspect the back of his cranium, as has been pointed out before. None of the 40 witnesses were pathologists, they didn't take measurements, they didn't take photos. Sure, there were some drawings of the body?
DA: Sir, can you explain why these two different drawings show different wounds?
WX: One is in a kind of pseudo 3D and-
DA: Yes sir. A different style, I am asking why both show a different wound. With the entry and exit wounds orientated on differing parts of the head.
WX: Well, I didn't draw those sir.
DA: Which is more accurate? Or are neither accurate?
WX: I don-
DA: You don't know? But you are sure of what the body was like. You got a "good" look, and made statements...

Repeat those doubts 40 times. Who gets the slam dunk? 40 witnesses who can't all have been stood around the president? 40 Witnesses who weren't taking detailed notes as they tried to save a life? Or pathologists? Or even trained observers?

Versus the documentary record of the autopsy, witnessed by personell from the forces, supported by a photographic record? No contest. One slam dunk becomes 40 opertunities for own goals.
 
And where in there do you see that Kilduff said the bullet entered the temple?

Oh, but it is you who claimed Kilduff pointed to the place of the large wound to the head without any attribution. You just made it up.

Originally Posted by HSienzant
And let's not forget Malcolm Kilduff who pointed to his right temple in Parkland on the day of the assassination as the place for the President's large wound to the head. He didn't point to the back of his head. He didn't point to the forehead. He pointed to the temple.

FAct is, he pointed to his temple and said the fatal shot was to the brain.

Did he say whether the bullet entered the temple, or exited the temple?

Fact is, he did not say. Nor is he qualified to say whether the large wound in the temple was an exit or entrance.

He simply pointed to the temple as the location of the wound.

And it is clearly the most obvious wound, as seen in the Zapruder film and the autopsy photos.

And you cited Dr. Jenkins as the possible source of this info, but Jenkins clearly was describing a LARGE wound in the area of the temple:

Marion Jenkins, (Professor And Chairman Of Anaesthesiology):

"There was a great laceration on the right side of the head (temporal and occipital)...even to the extent that the cerebellum had protruded from the wound." "I really think part of the cerebellum, as I recognized it, was herniated from the wound...."

So if Jenkins is the source, and Kilduff simply relaying info he got from the doctors, specifically Jenkins, Kilduff is putting the large wound in the right temple area, as I said originally. As I've said, you're doing a great job painting yourself into a corner. Using the evidence you provided, we see that Kilduff did indeed put the large wound in the temple.

This is further first day evidence (not decades later evidence), along with Zapruder's statement on local TV, that the large wound was in the temple, not the back of the head.

So we've got Dr. Jenkins, Abraham Zapruder, and Malcolm Kilduff all putting the large wound in the right side of the head.
 
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Why lie? The reasons for these have already been discussed at length.

Looks like you (or the system) attributed to me a statement actually made by Robert Prey:

If there was a large blow-out wound in the right temple, seems to me the original autopsy photos would not have been hidden from examination by the WC and the public.
 
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Looks like you (or the system) attributed to me a statement actually made by Robert Prey:

I may well have fluffed the quote there and selected the wrong post to reply to.

The point stands that the reasons for photos being replaced by illustrations in the WC are well documented and NOT what Robert claims.
 
If there was a large blow-out wound in the right temple, seems to me the original autopsy photos would not have been hidden from examination by the WC and the public.

This was covered in detail a few months ago. Your suppositions about what should or should not have been seen by the public are nonsense, especially since the President's own brother - the Attorney Generaal of the U.S. - was opposed to the autopsy photos of his brother being published anywhere.

As Earl Warren stated, the commissioners and the staff were neither doctors nor pathologists, and so were not qualified to interpret neither the photos nor the x-rays, so he felt it best if the pathologists who performed the autopsy describe the wounds in detail in laymen's terms in their testimony. This was done.

Instead of that, you published a cropped image and claimed it showed a entry wound to the forehead. Remember that?

You have no expertise to make such a judgment. No qualified person who does have that expertise has made such a judgment.

You have simply drawn an arrow on an image, and cropped the actual wound out of the picture entirely.

You do remember posting this image, right?

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/12174504/bulletwoundtemple.jpg
 
I may well have fluffed the quote there and selected the wrong post to reply to.

The point stands that the reasons for photos being replaced by illustrations in the WC are well documented and NOT what Robert claims.

My apologies. Actually, it looks like Robert screwed it up here:

If there was a large blow-out wound in the right temple, seems to me the original autopsy photos would not have been hidden from examination by the WC and the public.

Clink on the link; note the additional quote line at the top that is not closed by an appropriate close-quote in html.

And when you quoted him, the system continued the screw-up.
 
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