What's so fantastic about Apple?

[BobTheDonkey]

Here's a perfect example:

17" Macbook Pro:
http://store.apple.com/us/configure/MD311LL/A

$2499

2.4GHz quad-core
Intel Core i7
4GB 1333MHz
750GB 5400-rpm1
Intel HD Graphics 3000
AMD Radeon HD 6770M with 1GB GDDR5
Built-in battery (7 hours)


The current version of my Laptop:

Clevo X8180 (18.4")

http://www.sagernotebook.com/index.php?page=product_customed&model_name=NP8180

$2009

18.4" Full HD (1920 x 1080) LED-Backlit Display
Dual Nvidia GeForce GTX 560M GPU with 1.5GB GDDR5 Video Memory in SLI Mode
i7-2760QM Processor ( 6MB L3 Cache, 2.40GHz)
8GB Dual Channel DDR3 SDRAM at 1333MHz
750GB 7200rpm SATA 300 Hard Drive
8X DVD±R/RW/4X +DL Super-Multi Drive & Software
802.11 B+G+N Wireless LAN + Bluetooth Combo Module

(mine cost about what that macbook cost...but has dual 5870 video cards, a quad core i7 Q720 (1.6Ghz), 3 hdd (2x500GB raided, 1x120GB SSD) for $2500 a year ago. (I would have waited a few months, but needed to replace my old laptop))

And the only options I had to change on that Sager laptop were the HDD and CPU to match them to the Macbook's.


ETA: Or for a fair 17" comparison, the 8170 model from Sager:

http://www.sagernotebook.com/index.php?page=product_customed&model_name=NP8170

$1559

17.3" Full HD LED-Backlit Display with Super Glossy Surface (1920 x 1080)
Nvidia GeForce GTX 560M GPU with 1.5GB GDDR5 Video Memory
i7-2760QM Processor ( 6MB L3 Cache, 2.40GHz) [$160.00]
8GB Dual Channel DDR3 SDRAM at 1333MHz
750GB 7200rpm SATA 300 Hard Drive [$50.00]
8X DVD±R/RW/4X +DL Super-Multi Drive & Software
802.11 B+G+N Wireless LAN + Bluetooth Combo Module

And, again, the only changes I had to make on the ordering screen was the HDD and CPU to match that of the Macbook (coincidentally, should you order a Macbook, you'll have to go through a similar set of options).

 

[banquetbear]

Or you could ask in a forum like this and they could point out a PC with similar specs and much cheaper.

But this is not to say that nobody should buy Apple. Someone may like the design, appreciate the "closed" environment, the ease of choice. I even justify elitism. What I can't -personally- stand is the attitude that Macs are something for those "who know", that they are overall better than any PC and that those who use them are actually more productive.

...well I mentioned I've been on other forums: and I've got a pretty good idea on what I'm gonna get. I'm pretty good at figuring things out: and while the technical stuff is taking a bit of getting used to I'm not letting it overwhelm me.

As for attitude: the very first response to me in this thread was "BWAHAHAHAHA! Oh my me! Sums up Apple fanbois to a tee!" Which is made funnier due to the fact that I really can't stand Mac's and am anything but an Apple fanboy.

I think that you will find that "attitude" is alive and well on both sides of the debate: the honest truth is that there are valid reasons for buying Mac and valid reasons for buying PC, and there really are no valid reasons for slamming someone else for making a choice that they consider best for them.

 

[BobTheDonkey]

...well I mentioned I've been on other forums: and I've got a pretty good idea on what I'm gonna get. I'm pretty good at figuring things out: and while the technical stuff is taking a bit of getting used to I'm not letting it overwhelm me.

As for attitude: the very first response to me in this thread was "BWAHAHAHAHA! Oh my me! Sums up Apple fanbois to a tee!" Which is made funnier due to the fact that I really can't stand Mac's and am anything but an Apple fanboy.

I think that you will find that "attitude" is alive and well on both sides of the debate: the honest truth is that there are valid reasons for buying Mac and valid reasons for buying PC, and there really are no valid reasons for slamming someone else for making a choice that they consider best for them.

The only valid reasons for buying a Mac that I"ve seen proffered, basically ever, were Stray Cat's:

1) Industry standard (I can appreciate this. While I realize that Windows based PCs can do everything a Mac based PC can do these days, it can still be a pain sharing files/formats, etc)
2) I just want one, damnit. STFU ( last half said tongue firmly in cheek )

 

[Stray Cat]

The only valid reasons for buying a Mac that I"ve seen proffered, basically ever, were Stray Cat's:

1) Industry standard (I can appreciate this. While I realize that Windows based PCs can do everything a Mac based PC can do these days, it can still be a pain sharing files/formats, etc)
2) I just want one, damnit. STFU ( last half said tongue firmly in cheek )

And I also share banquetbear's opinion that "there really are no valid reasons for slamming someone else for making a choice that they consider best for them."* . In the same way I don't criticise anyone for buying an expensive or cheap car if it suits them to do so (except for Volvo drivers - what's that all about?).


* I can only hope that he doesn't copyright his forum posts

 

[banquetbear]

* I can only hope that he doesn't copyright his forum posts

...reported.




Just kidding mate, cracking up laughing here!!! Well played!

 

[BobTheDonkey]

And I also share banquetbear's opinion that "there really are no valid reasons for slamming someone else for making a choice that they consider best for them."* . In the same way I don't criticise anyone for buying an expensive or cheap car if it suits them to do so (except for Volvo drivers - what's that all about?).


* I can only hope that he doesn't copyright his forum posts

I see no problem with pointing out to someone that their reasoning for some action is spurious at best. This is a skeptics forum, after all. That's why we come here

 

[Stray Cat]

I see no problem with pointing out to someone that their reasoning for some action is spurious at best.

But the majority of this thread hasn't been about people's reasons. It's been about simply criticising Apple or criticising other OS's or companies and sometimes those criticisms have been spurious (and some of them spot on).

This is a skeptics forum, after all. That's why we come here

Yes, and I often wonder why the illogical nonsense sometimes spouted by those who hold the same basic PoV isn't challenged in the same sceptical way by those uber sceptics who challenge everything that opposes their PoV.

Because if someone is being emotional instead of logical, it's just as wrong regardless of what position that person is arguing in their illogical and emotional way.

But, then again, buying shiny stuff is partly an emotional thing... in fact life is partly an emotional thing, so I'm sure that some sceptics come here and aren't actually 100% logical and sceptical of some stuff. And I think that's the difference between arguing a point of science and arguing a point of choice of what to buy. We don't base all our descisions about what to buy on logic and practicality... That's why advertising works (sometimes, when it's not not working that is).

This post was brought to you on a 5 year old Macbook, purchased in the Las Vegas Applestore, whilst standing next to Penn Jillette, that well known uber sceptic and Mac User.

 

[BobTheDonkey]

But the majority of this thread hasn't been about people's reasons. It's been about simply criticising Apple or criticising other OS's or companies and sometimes those criticisms have been spurious (and some of them spot on).


Yes, and I often wonder why the illogical nonsense sometimes spouted by those who hold the same basic PoV isn't challenged in the same sceptical way by those uber sceptics who challenge everything that opposes their PoV.

Because if someone is being emotional instead of logical, it's just as wrong regardless of what position that person is arguing in their illogical and emotional way.

But, then again, buying shiny stuff is partly an emotional thing... in fact life is partly an emotional thing, so I'm sure that some sceptics come here and aren't actually 100% logical and sceptical of some stuff. And I think that's the difference between arguing a point of science and arguing a point of choice of what to buy. We don't base all our descisions about what to buy on logic and practicality... That's why advertising works (sometimes, when it's not not working that is).

This post was brought to you on a 5 year old Macbook, purchased in the Las Vegas Applestore, whilst standing next to Penn Jillette, that well known uber sceptic and Mac User.

You won't find me arguing differently. I'm as much a slave to desire as most others. What is important to me, though, is that I realize when I'm just being a slave to desire rather than actually being practical. Sometimes we need someone to point that out to us...



Out of curiosity, what spurious claims have been made against Apple in this thread?

 

[Stray Cat]

Out of curiosity, what spurious claims have been made against Apple in this thread?

Well perhaps I should have said "sweeping generalisations" But really I'm not going to get into it.

Though I've just realised that by mentioning sweeping generalisations without actually pointing any specific ones out, I've actually just made a sweeping generalisation of my own.

 

[Kid Eager]

I couldn't resist:

 

[banquetbear]

Here's a perfect example:


(mine cost about what that macbook cost...but has dual 5870 video cards, a quad core i7 Q720 (1.6Ghz), 3 hdd (2x500GB raided, 1x120GB SSD) for $2500 a year ago. (I would have waited a few months, but needed to replace my old laptop))

And the only options I had to change on that Sager laptop were the HDD and CPU to match them to the Macbook's.

...indeed: a perfect example. I have no idea what any of what you have written means. I wouldn't have known to swap out the HDD and the CPU: and I don't know if what you have done has upgraded the computer or downgraded it. You could have written gibberish and I would have had a better chance of understanding it.

I mean seriously: you know I don't understand the lingo, yet you throw out the words dual 5870 video cards and 2 x 500GB raided as if they are supposed to mean something to me. Honestly: I don't have a clue. Googling 5870 Video Cards leads me here:

https://www.google.com/search?hl=en...=1678l1678l0l2633l1l1l0l0l0l0l464l464l4-1l1l0

...and that leads me no closer to understanding what those cards are, what they do, what components would be better and which ones would be worse. This is my point: to get a PC to match the specs on the Mac, you need to either understand what the words mean, or take an educated guess based on the reviews, or know enough about the internet to find a forum and ask. Part of the value of any product are the intangibles and that is what is missing from this conversation.

I've just done a quick search for Sager Laptops in NZ and I can't find a NZ supplier: and it doesn't look like it would be covered under warranty for an international sale. So with GST and exchange rates the same laptop would cost me $2800: (which incidentally is bang on my budget!!!) but I wouldn't buy it or even consider buying it because I've never heard of the supplier and if things went wrong it would be too much trouble to fix. So out of the two options you have put up: you've given me every reason to choose the Mac!!!

So while I've got all you smart people around me: I might as well pick your brains!!!

I'm looking for a laptop from a NZ supplier that will process images in Lightroom and Photoshop quickly. I do conference and event photography so when I am onsite quick culling of RAW's and JPEG's are the number one priority.

Second is presentation: while I prefer a print portfolio I can't justify the continued expense, so am looking at a "cooler" way of presenting my images to clients.

Third priority is general editing, word, excel and other general needs...will be uploading a lot of images as well as part of my typical workflow and connecting it to a card reader and external hard drives on a daily basis...

Now: nearly all of the laptops I've looked at can do this: so I'm really looking to get the best bang for my buck. Budget is about NZ $3000 inc GST.

In my shortlist is this laptop/tablet:

http://shopap.lenovo.com/nz/en/products/laptops/thinkpad/xtablet-series/

Its got a smaller screen than I probably would like: but it ticks most of the other boxes and a few other photographers I know online use it. I would upgrade the memory to 8 GIG but otherwise leave it as is...thoughts or other options???

 

[This is The End]

<snip>

Learning that 8GB is better than 6GB and is better than 4GB...this stuff is second nature to some people but another language to most others.

<snip>

I'm trying to imagine a reason where 4 would be better than 8.

 

[Stomatopoda]

stuff

Working with computers for a living and not wanting to make the effort to learn the basics for hardware? Kinda like a taxi driver who doesn't know the difference between a transmission and a muffler. You act like hardware ignorance is a birth condition that you can't remedy, when, in fact, it takes a few minutes of reading information that is available, free, all over the internet.

But, yes, a Mac is perfect for the willfully ignorant.

 

[Kid Eager]

But, yes, a Mac is perfect for the willfully ignorant.

you just missed the sweeping generalisations thread arc...

 

[Brian-M]

Here's a hypothetical....

A software company comes out with a clone of the Mac OS. No legal issues, they've reverse-engineered a wide variety of programs that run on the Mac OS to create an original OS that can run all the same programs that a genuine Mac can.

Now let's say that they put this OS on a bootable DVD with a simple self-install program, and put in on the market for about $30 a disk, allowing anyone to effortlessly turn a PC into a hackintosh.

My question is... Would this be a devastating blow to sales of Macintosh computers, or would this only result in a moderate downturn?

 

[Darat]

...indeed: a perfect example. I have no idea what any of what you have written means. I wouldn't have known to swap out the HDD and the CPU: and I don't know if what you have done has upgraded the computer or downgraded it. You could have written gibberish and I would have had a better chance of understanding it.


...snip...

But that's the same as the on-line Apple store does - it offers you those options, why is it different when Apple does it compared to when other companies do it?

ETA: Just went to the UK Apple store to check that it's the same as it was the last time I bought a Mac and it is, if I click on the main page "Macbook Pro" - this is the screen Apple presents me with.

ETA2: I thought I'd check how other companies present their choices, the second attachment is from Dell from their mid-range Laptop selection page, compare the lack of what you don't know about "I mean seriously: you know I don't understand the lingo, yet you throw out the words dual 5870 video cards and 2 x 500GB raided as if they are supposed to mean something to me. " with Apple's offering that uses the lingo you don't understand.

From these two examples it shows that Apple is the company that doesn't present its products in a way that is meaningful to you....

 

[bit_pattern]

I'm trying to imagine a reason where 4 would be better than 8.

Golf?

 

[banquetbear]

But that's the same as the on-line Apple store does - it offers you those options, why is it different when Apple does it compared to when other companies do it?

ETA: Just went to the UK Apple store to check that it's the same as it was the last time I bought a Mac and it is, if I click on the main page "Macbook Pro" - this is the screen Apple presents me with.

ETA2: I thought I'd check how other companies present their choices, the second attachment is from Dell from their mid-range Laptop selection page, compare the lack of what you don't know about "I mean seriously: you know I don't understand the lingo, yet you throw out the words dual 5870 video cards and 2 x 500GB raided as if they are supposed to mean something to me. " with Apple's offering that uses the lingo you don't understand.

From these two examples it shows that Apple is the company that doesn't present its products in a way that is meaningful to you....

...I go to the Apple website: I've got a choice of Macbook Air or Macbook Pro.

http://www.apple.com/mac/

I click on Air: I get this:

http://www.apple.com/macbookair/

I click on Pro, I get this:

http://www.apple.com/macbookpro/

I'm not quite sure if I want a Pro or an Air: so I click on this:


http://store.apple.com/nz/compare/mac?page=macbook-air

I determine that I want the sturdiness of the Pro, so I click on Pro again, and click buy:


http://store.apple.com/nz/browse/ho...GURE-MACBOOKPRO-INDEX&cp=CONFIGURE-MACBOOKPRO


I go to Dell: and I've got the choice of the Vostro range: "Built for your business and budget"

http://www.dell.com/nz/business/p/vostro-laptops.aspx?c=nz&cs=nzbsd1&l=en&s=bsd&~ck=mn

The XPS range: "Powerfully entertaining"

http://www.dell.com/nz/business/p/x...laptops.aspx?c=nz&cs=nzbsd1&l=en&s=bsd&~ck=mn

The Latitude range: "New and Improved, and Improved some more"

http://www.dell.com/nz/business/p/latitude-laptops.aspx?c=nz&cs=nzbsd1&l=en&s=bsd&~ck=mn

And the Precision range: "A mobile Desktop Replacement."

http://www.dell.com/nz/business/p/precision-laptops.aspx?c=nz&cs=nzbsd1&l=en&s=bsd&~ck=mn

Seriously: you think its just as easy to choose a Dell as it is to choose a Mac? I'm looking for essentially a desktop replacement because I won't be using a Desktop anymore (Precision Range, 2 choices), it is for business and I'm on a budget, so I'm considering the Vostro's, (7 choices) I know I want a powerful machine so I'm considering the XPS's, (4 choices) and I suppose I want a tweaked machine, so I'll have a look there as well. (10 choices). Where do I start? You call the Precision range "mid range laptops" but they are the most expensive ones in the set! Every one of the descriptors matches what I am looking for: all of them fit my budget, so I've got 23 computers to consider over five different pages. Compared to five computers on one page.

So so far I've narrowed things down to 5 options from Mac: and 23 options from Dell. I know that all 5 Mac Options will run the software I need to run simply because they are used industry wide as standard. I don't know about the Dells: so to determine which one is best for me I've got to start reading the fine print.

And of course, there is more than just Dell.

Over at Lenovo, they have even less descriptive product descriptions.

We've got the L-series (Enterprise laptop), the Edge, (Small Business Style) the T Series (Portable Powerhouse) the X Series (Mobile Freedom) the X Series Tablet, (Versatility to go) and the W Series (Ultimate Mobile Workstation). Each description is something I need!

So that is another 20 laptops: all loosely fitting the criteria of what I am looking for.

Thats 43 different laptops, all suited to small business, all suited to my personal and business needs, from two companies, compared to five from Apple. Add in the other big Laptop companies, Sony, HP, Toshiba, and you've got literally hundreds of different laptops to choose from.

So yeah: I don't understand the language, but when I google "2.2GHz or 2.4GHz" I come up with an answer in the very first hit, as opposed to the rubbish I got when I googled "5870 Video Cards" just up thread.

So coupled with the fact that the majority of my peers use Macs: they tell me that any of the Mac Pros will do and just to get the biggest monitor I can afford, and that I've only got five to choose from as opposed to hundreds on the PC side: I can confidentially say that it is significantly easier to buy a Mac than a PC regardless of how many screenshots you choose to show.

Which gives me no comfort at all because as stated before I (personally) HATE MACS.

 

[banquetbear]

Working with computers for a living and not wanting to make the effort to learn the basics for hardware? Kinda like a taxi driver who doesn't know the difference between a transmission and a muffler. You act like hardware ignorance is a birth condition that you can't remedy, when, in fact, it takes a few minutes of reading information that is available, free, all over the internet.

But, yes, a Mac is perfect for the willfully ignorant.

...hey man, its a good thing I don't like macs then, isn't it! But its good to see that you are doing your best to make the Mac people look bad on this thread, because they are the ones throwing around accusations of "Apple Fanboe" and being "willfully ignorant."

And I don't need to know exactly how my computer works: just like thousands of call centre operators don't know how their computers work, or thousands of students, or thousands of executives.

I do know how my camera works: I do know how my software works, and I do know how to make my computer do things. And if it can't do what I need it to do, then I find out how to do it and then I do it.

I don't think that anyone is in danger of dying because I don't know if a AMD Radeon HD 6770M with 1GB GDDR5 is a graphics card or an island in the South Pacific. But if it makes you feel better, feel free to insult the millions of computer users on the planet who don't know as much as you do about computers.

 

[Darat]

...I go to the Apple website: I've got a choice of Macbook Air or Macbook Pro.

http://www.apple.com/mac/

That's the bumpf, as I said I went to the online stores and I showed you above what you get.

...snip...

Seriously: you think its just as easy to choose a Dell as it is to choose a Mac?

...snip...

That was not what I was pointing out, what I was pointing out and showed to be true is that if someone is like you and knows nothing about hardware at all it is the Dell store that describes what the laptops can do/are for without the lingo that you don't understand.

Have a look above at the screen grabs, under the Apple store you immediately have to decide what processor you want, what GPU, RAM and so on, go to the Dell equivalent and it tells you what the different laptops can do without the lingo that you don't understand.

Which is the point I was making - Apple throws you straight into a screen that you need to know what all the lingo means before you can decide which one to order, Dell does it in a "lingo free" manner. (Of course both of them open out to much more detailed screens that require you to choose using the lingo.)