Merged Apollo "hoax" discussion / Lick observatory laser saga

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On the Contrary, The More Pressing Question Is, "Does Armstrong Really Believe That He is Fooling Us, Fooling Anyone For That Matter?"

Nope. The question, as proven by the multitude of endorsements here, is whether Patrick1000 actually believes the nonsense that he's spewing enough to confront Kranz, Lovell, etc. directly about it.

You have "called out" several important Apollo functionaries, labelling them "perps" for no better reason than their failure to conform to your expectations. Now we will see whether you are willing and able to put any substance behind that callout. I will facilitate direct contact -- not anonymous web tantrums -- between you and the Apollo workers I know. We'll see how well you fare.

You express prodigious confidence when there are no real consequences of failure. Let's see how well you work without a safety net, the way the rest of us in the real world have to work.

Contact info, please?
 
Jay is 100% correct here, Patrick has shown an absolute refusal to accept any evidence from proven experts in the field, & like the usual paranormal believer, refuses to back up his claims, expecting us to take is word for it, in spite of his blatant dishonesty on the subject.
Jay has given you the means to test your conviction in the real world, and you refuse to do it...why is that? Acta non Verba, Patrick...The time is here for you to put up or shut up, and in my opinion, that is the only response from the forum you should receive to any more of your attempts to obfuscate or distract from the matter at hand. You have libeled professionals in the field from behind your various sock puppets & hide behind your monitor. Face them in the real world where your actions will have consequences. Show us that you really believe the garbage you are spewing...

Put up or Shut up.
 
Nope. The question, as proven by the multitude of endorsements here, is whether Patrick1000 actually believes the nonsense that he's spewing enough to confront Kranz, Lovell, etc. directly about it.

You have "called out" several important Apollo functionaries, labelling them "perps" for no better reason than their failure to conform to your expectations. Now we will see whether you are willing and able to put any substance behind that callout. I will facilitate direct contact -- not anonymous web tantrums -- between you and the Apollo workers I know. We'll see how well you fare.

You express prodigious confidence when there are no real consequences of failure. Let's see how well you work without a safety net, the way the rest of us in the real world have to work.

Contact info, please?


I would like to see this, too.
 
Do you really believe you are fooling anyone, Patrick?

No one believes you.

Put up or shut up.

On the Contrary, The More Pressing Question Is, blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah

(Nonsense snipped.)

Patrick, when are you going to put up or shut up? When are you going to agree to face those you accuse of being "perps" and tell them your accusations to their faces?

Or too busy practicing your banjo playin'?
 
The More Pressing Question Is, "Does Armstrong Really Believe That He is Fooling Us, Fooling Anyone For That Matter?"
The answer to your more pressing question is no. Armstrong does not believe he is fooling anyone, because Armstrong is telling the truth.

The great thing about telling the truth is that you don't have to keep altering your story, backpedalling and hastily changing the subject. I heartily recommend it.

Having settled that matter, you can now get back to the other pressing question of when you're going to put up or shut up.
 
The point is Erock that is not what the EECOMs thought...There was no reason to conclude in any conclusive sense that it was oxygen that was in fact the substance venting.

There had been a bang, the O2 pressure was dropping fast, and a gas was seen to be venting. What other conclusion could be drawn from these facts?

This will put it in perspective for you, say Lovell had said that. Say in the voice transcript he said it was the O2, or said he thought it was O2 venting. Because there are other things that could have been venting from the service module, one could/would/should conclude Lovell had foreknowledge right there.

If something else had been venting, surely the instruments would have shown the reduction in pressure? Only a conspiracy nut would conclude that Jim Lovell had foreknowledge of the event.
 
On the Contrary, The More Pressing Question Is, "Does Armstrong Patrick Really Believe That He is Fooling Us, Fooling Anyone For That Matter?"

Fixed your typo
.
Consider this AdMan; You descend to the surface of the moon, missing your targeted landing site by 4 or 5 miles. While you are on the lunar surface, you, your partner Buzz Aldrin, and the supporting staff at Mission Control in Houston, not to mention the crew at Flagstaff, are unable to determine with any certainty where it was, you, the first man to walk on the moon actually landed.

They miss their target by a couple of miles, on a journey that is 240,000 miles in a straight line. How close was Columbus to the point he aimed at? You keep trying to make a big deal out of this and ignore the fact that their location was known to within less than a mile.

You are now riding back to earth in the relative comfort of the command module and you have time on your hands. You have have maps of the lunar surface including the one your Command Module Pilot, Michael Collins, used in his effort to himself locate the Eagle.

You are a great adventurer, a great explorer, one of the greatest of all time in fact, like Columbus they say, like Magellan they say. Why aren't you yourself then looking at the maps you have in the command module, if for no other reason than simply curiosity's sake, to figure out where it is that you in fact touched down? Where it is exactly that you walked on the moon? You saw the terrain, know it better than anyone. You have been studying the terrain of the landing site ellipse, studying it better than anyone. You perhaps more than anyone are in a position to know, to figure out where it is that you landed. Yet when the CapCom calls you to chat about this, the landing site, the $64,000 question, you sound almost disinterested. Didn't you try to figure out for yourself where it was that you were? No, you did not. From the conversation you had with the CapCom on the "ride back" you gave absolutely no indication that you made any such effort. You cared almost not a whit about the $64,000 question. The whole thing is ridiculous beyond belief.

Maybe it didn't matter to them because they knew the location accurayely enough. Maybe because they had other things to do. Maybe because they were the firat people to walk on another world and simply weren't bothered by the exact location.

You are the only person who thinks it is ridiculous.

Now it is August of 1969, the day of the Apollo 11 Post Flight Press Conference. Everyone wants to know quite obviously where it was that you guys landed, especially given the 1202 alarm and so forth, the story about flying over west crater, the dramatic ride over the boulder field and what not. But in your Apollo 11 Post Flight Press Conference Presentation you make no specific reference to this site in the sense that you do not show a detailed map, the LUNAR AREA MAP 2 for example, and inform us all of how this most interesting of occurrences went down, how it is and where it was that you wanted to land at the ellipse's center, and how it happened exactly that you flew west and south of where you hoped to land and so why it was that you wound up so very dramatically encountering west crater and the boulder field.

Here is another example of applying simple common sense to this incredible tale. Anyone can see the whole thing for what it is, an utterly phony scam. anyone can see this simply by pausing a moment and noting how these characters don't behave as they would were they to have been real explorers, adventurers, men curious about where it was that they went, what place it was exactly that they ultimately found. Anyone can see Armstrong was no Magellan, not even close. Simple common sense is all that is needed, rocket science is even less than relevant here.

Just because you would have told them how fantastic you are, and the dangers you had to avoid, doesn't mean that everyone would. As has been explained before, these guys are test pilots, they are used to danger. They are not big heads that need to dramatise their exploits.
 
no i simply would have told them where i landed

Fixed your typo
.


They miss their target by a couple of miles, on a journey that is 240,000 miles in a straight line. How close was Columbus to the point he aimed at? You keep trying to make a big deal out of this and ignore the fact that their location was known to within less than a mile.



Maybe it didn't matter to them because they knew the location accurayely enough. Maybe because they had other things to do. Maybe because they were the firat people to walk on another world and simply weren't bothered by the exact location.

You are the only person who thinks it is ridiculous.



Just because you would have told them how fantastic you are, and the dangers you had to avoid, doesn't mean that everyone would. As has been explained before, these guys are test pilots, they are used to danger. They are not big heads that need to dramatise their exploits.


Quite obviously Armstrong is not a great explorer. No need to tell everyone how great he is because pretending to land on the moon is not a great accomplishment. It is rather, no accomplishment whatsoever. This goes without saying. However, we would expect him to tell us where he pretended to park the phony space ship. We deserve that much having paid for the stupid thing.



Those guys ought to apologize to Thomas Kelly as well. Assuming the guy is still alive. Imagine going through life believing you designed the Eagle and it turned out the mission was phony. Better to die disappointed than a fool.
 
They miss their target by a couple of miles, on a journey that is 240,000 miles in a straight line.

Well, no, not really.

Patrick tried to argue that since certain lunar impactors were tracked with extreme accuracy to their impact points, the Apollo spacecraft should have similar constraints. He didn't understand the difference between tracking a ballistic projectile on a well-defined trajectory and tracking a human-piloted craft in a powered descent.

You have to consider the circumstances as having started from a well-known lunar orbit, but then suffering guidance dispersions along the way down to the surface. It's not a problem that started back on Earth and compounded the errors all through the process. This is actually a good feature of Apollo mission design -- it's not an all-or-nothing proposition. The mission is broken up into phases, the boundaries of which are opportunities to correct errors that accumulate in the previous phase. Lunar orbit insertion is one such boundary, after which the ship orbits for a day without any maneuvers, so that the ground crew can refine its understanding of the orbit geometry by observing the radio signals.

So the descent orbit begins from a fresh start, a known place that lets the crew deal only with problems that arise from that point on. But unlike the Rangers, which plummeted directly into the lunar surface, and the Surveyors, which flew a direct approach with powered terminal descent, the Apollos landed after a period of manual fiddling and flying, such that there was no deterministic way to manage all the dispersions mathematically to the precision possible in the other mission profiles.

Maybe it didn't matter to them because they knew the location accurately enough.

Oh, it's been an eight-month odyssey watching Patrick fumble through this argument in four different forums -- two of which he was eventually banned from.

He's basically doing the same thing there as he's done with the Apollo 13 oxygen tank. He's following a fairly typical pseudo-historian's approach of reading his own meaning into different accounts of the same event, trying to show that they're hopelessly contradictory and therefore should be suspect.

At the time of the landing, various means were used to try to arrive at precise coordinates for the landing position. Originally, on a different forum, Patrick argued that they had to have very precise coordinates, otherwise they couldn't have rejoined the CSM. He had his head handed to him on that point by myself and another spacecraft engineer. The ascent profile does not require a precise launch profile, but rather folds that into terminal rendezvous along with the ascent propulsion dispersions.

So after massive failure in that forum, he comes here with a new line of reasoning for why the "lost" LM is somehow evidence of fraud -- basically that all the related testimony and documents are hopelessly inconsistent, some being "intentionally misgridded" and others (arbitrarily) being "the true story" that NASA somehow failed to hide properly.

In terms of guidance, there's no problem. The ship can land within a very broad region and still make it to orbit and rendezvous safely with the CSM. But naturally the scientists wanted a more finely-tuned picture of where the ship had landed, so that they can put the photography, experiments, and samples in a useful context.

You are the only person who thinks it is ridiculous.

This is very true. As you've seen, he's been corrected by professional cartographers for his atrocious map-reading, by professional navigators for his colossal ignorance of how to navigate, and by professional spacecraft designers for his inability to comprehend the functions of a spacecraft.

Yet he goes on his merry way, blithely ignoring all expertise and crowing (albeit in his little fantasy world only) about how he's the only one to have put all the pieces together to discover fraud. Kinda sad, if it weren't so funny.
 
<snip>
Here is another example of applying simple common sense to this incredible tale. Anyone can see the whole thing for what it is, an utterly phony scam. anyone can see this simply by pausing a moment and noting how these characters don't behave as they would were they to have been real explorers, adventurers, men curious about where it was that they went, what place it was exactly that they ultimately found. Anyone can see Armstrong was no Magellan, not even close. Simple common sense is all that is needed, rocket science is even less than relevant here.

You've answered this before, but, again, how do you think they were supposed to behave?

Before you answer, remember, you are talking to someone in the aviation community, someone that knows several test pilots, not to mention senior check airmen for major carriers, well-respected aviation educators, etc., in a fairly wide network. I can assure you that self-aggrandizement is (generally) not a character trait among these men and women; in fact it is a trait that is frowned upon.*

So, as I said, tell me again what behavior they were supposed exhibit?

Oh, before I forget: did you work out that PTFE in an O2 tank thing? How about looking up the term "BLEVE"?

And did you send Jay your contact info?

----------
*As a humorous aside, a few years ago we almost had to force the retired Chief Test Pilot for McDonnell-Douglas to accept a pretty significant and well-deserved award for his achievements as a flight instructor. He kept saying that all he did was teach people about flying.
 
Claiming that I backpedal is more than a little ridiculous Jack by the hedge....

The answer to your more pressing question is no. Armstrong does not believe he is fooling anyone, because Armstrong is telling the truth.

The great thing about telling the truth is that you don't have to keep altering your story, backpedalling and hastily changing the subject. I heartily recommend it.

Having settled that matter, you can now get back to the other pressing question of when you're going to put up or shut up.

Claiming that I backpedal is more than a little ridiculous Jack by the hedge....

There is not a single point of mine that I do not still stand by;

1) Apollo must be fraudulent because in the case of a real program they never would have sent Apollo 8 to the moon without first being certain the Apollo 6 problems were well addressed by way of another unmanned Apollo 6 type test/dry run.

2) Apollo must be fraudulent because in the case of a real program physicians would have addressed the Borman illness in a very different way than it in fact the matter was addressed.

3) Apollo must be fraudulent because in the case of a real program they never would have sent men to the moon without a more dependable and sophisticated mechanism for aligning the IMU.

4) Apollo must be fraudulent because in the case of a real program they never would have sent Michael Collins to the moon with a LUNAR AREA 2 MAP that featured a targeted landing site intentionally mislabeled with respect to its coordinates.

5) Apollo must be fraudulent because in the case of a real program they never would have employed a Department of Defense prepared map, mislabeled in the very same way the LAM-2 Map was mislabeled, for the purpose of monitoring the Eagle's alleged descent.

6) Apollo must be fraudulent because in the case of a real program they never would have sent astronauts to the surface of the moon who could not find their location independently, with a high degree of accuracy, without help from the air/Collins, or the ground/MSFN.

7) Apollo must be fraudulent because in the case of a real program they never would have sent a man to the moon who would walk around on the lunar surface so casually with his visor raised as Armstrong did.

8) Apollo must be fraudulent because in the case of a real program they never would have sent the first man to the moon without plans to take at least one dedicated photo of the soon to be world famous explorer/adventurer.

9) Apollo must be fraudulent because in the case of a real program they never would have sent astronauts to the moon who were under the impression that dark adaptation was dependent on the within fractions of a second pupilary constriction/dilatation mechanism.

10) Apollo must be fraudulent because in the case of a real program they never would have sent astronauts to the moon that claimed they at no time saw stars in constellation patterns in cislunar space and claimed that at no time they saw stars in constellation patterns from the surface of the moon.

11) Apollo must be fraudulent because in the case of a real program they never would have sent a man to the moon who though being the first man to allegedly walk on the lunar surface, climbed into his command module for the alleged return to earth and made no dedicated effort himself to try and figure out where it was he landed based on his alleged observations.

12) Apollo must be fraudulent because in the case of a real program they never would have sent an astronaut to the moon that would intentionally point his tv camera at the sun.

13) Apollo must be fraudulent because in the case of a real program they never would have sent astronauts to the moon in a ship that was allegedly hit by lightening.

14) Apollo must be fraudulent because in the case of a real program they never would have sent men to the moon and employed a flight director, Gene Kranz, a man who new the LM would need to be used as a "lifeboat" before it actually had been determined it would need to be used in such a fashion.

Every one of these points is most excellent and I have never backed off on a one. Have not backpedaled one iota with respect to any of this.

If anyone changed their story it is NASA. They claimed in their Apollo 11 Press Kit that they were targeting one specific set of coordinates and confirmed those as the targeted coordinates by featuring them at the center of the landing ellipse in both the LAM-2 Map as well as the tracking map. There can be no mistake that this mislabeling was intentional given both maps were so identically labeled. And then NASA turned around and told us in the Apollo 11 Mission Report that not only were the targeted landing site coordinates different from those presented in the Press Kit, but we also find out that those new coordinates in fact are the true coordinates of the landing ellipse's center.
 
No need to tell everyone how great he is because pretending to land on the moon is not a great accomplishment. It is rather, no accomplishment whatsoever.

...and will you also deny the reality of Armstrong's X-15 flights?...or the flight of Gemini 8??


This goes without saying.

How is that? If it "goes without saying" then why keep saying the same thing??

Recall that NO ONE HERE AGREES WITH YOU. You seem to keep "forgetting" that...

....but don't be concerned...we will always "remind" you. :)


Better to die disappointed than a fool.

Need I say which of these applies to you.
 
Those guys ought to apologize to Thomas Kelly as well. Assuming the guy is still alive.

He isn't. And neither he nor the crews need you to mediate anything, thank you. They knew each other and are quite content with the way history tells their story.

As far as pretending to be an astronaut, I don't find that any more egregious than pretending to be a doctor, a bike-shop owner, radar repairman, school student, or any of the other identities you've fabricated over the past eight months. You don't really stand on the high ground of integrity on this point, Patrick.
 
Steve Bales describes watching the LM flown by Armstrong moving....

Well, no, not really.

Patrick tried to argue that since certain lunar impactors were tracked with extreme accuracy to their impact points, the Apollo spacecraft should have similar constraints. He didn't understand the difference between tracking a ballistic projectile on a well-defined trajectory and tracking a human-piloted craft in a powered descent.

You have to consider the circumstances as having started from a well-known lunar orbit, but then suffering guidance dispersions along the way down to the surface. It's not a problem that started back on Earth and compounded the errors all through the process. This is actually a good feature of Apollo mission design -- it's not an all-or-nothing proposition. The mission is broken up into phases, the boundaries of which are opportunities to correct errors that accumulate in the previous phase. Lunar orbit insertion is one such boundary, after which the ship orbits for a day without any maneuvers, so that the ground crew can refine its understanding of the orbit geometry by observing the radio signals.

So the descent orbit begins from a fresh start, a known place that lets the crew deal only with problems that arise from that point on. But unlike the Rangers, which plummeted directly into the lunar surface, and the Surveyors, which flew a direct approach with powered terminal descent, the Apollos landed after a period of manual fiddling and flying, such that there was no deterministic way to manage all the dispersions mathematically to the precision possible in the other mission profiles.



Oh, it's been an eight-month odyssey watching Patrick fumble through this argument in four different forums -- two of which he was eventually banned from.

He's basically doing the same thing there as he's done with the Apollo 13 oxygen tank. He's following a fairly typical pseudo-historian's approach of reading his own meaning into different accounts of the same event, trying to show that they're hopelessly contradictory and therefore should be suspect.

At the time of the landing, various means were used to try to arrive at precise coordinates for the landing position. Originally, on a different forum, Patrick argued that they had to have very precise coordinates, otherwise they couldn't have rejoined the CSM. He had his head handed to him on that point by myself and another spacecraft engineer. The ascent profile does not require a precise launch profile, but rather folds that into terminal rendezvous along with the ascent propulsion dispersions.

So after massive failure in that forum, he comes here with a new line of reasoning for why the "lost" LM is somehow evidence of fraud -- basically that all the related testimony and documents are hopelessly inconsistent, some being "intentionally misgridded" and others (arbitrarily) being "the true story" that NASA somehow failed to hide properly.

In terms of guidance, there's no problem. The ship can land within a very broad region and still make it to orbit and rendezvous safely with the CSM. But naturally the scientists wanted a more finely-tuned picture of where the ship had landed, so that they can put the photography, experiments, and samples in a useful context.



This is very true. As you've seen, he's been corrected by professional cartographers for his atrocious map-reading, by professional navigators for his colossal ignorance of how to navigate, and by professional spacecraft designers for his inability to comprehend the functions of a spacecraft.

Yet he goes on his merry way, blithely ignoring all expertise and crowing (albeit in his little fantasy world only) about how he's the only one to have put all the pieces together to discover fraud. Kinda sad, if it weren't so funny.

Steve Bales and others describes "watching" the LM flown by Armstrong moving very fast, like no one had ever flown it, moving fast and more or less horizontally as the commander was allegedly looking for a place to park the ship beyond the "boulder field".

MSFN has to be tracking the ship with precision/accuracy Jay if Bales and the others can see it skirting along so quickly just above the lunar surface.

Also, need I bring this up again Jay? MSFN lunar landing coordinates are reported in the Apollo 11 Mission Report. They show the MSFN's tracking was quite accurate. The system found the LM to be at coordinates just a bit more than a half mile from the place that was ultimately determined to be the landing site.

From 250,000 miles away, how much more accurate could the thing be Jay? This stuff is fake big time.

I have trouble understanding why you'd want to bring this up again. It is not really a debatable point. Bales statements and those of the others are what they are. They all "watched" the tracking of the LM. The MSFN coordinates are reported in the Apollo 11 Mission Report. The "actual landing site coordinates" are well known. The distance between the MSFN coordinates and those of the "actual landing site" are easily calculated using a simply Pythagorean approach. It seems rather ridiculous to me to go on with this particular aspect of our debate.

The numbers are all NASA's as are the claims of the Houston people watching the LM being tracked as Armstrong was alleged to move rapidly, horizontally, like the LM had never moved before, just before touching down.

They pretended to track the thing Jay, NASA's own data supports this view. You can hardly be serious arguing otherwise....
 
I would expect Armstrong to try and figure out where he landed...

You've answered this before, but, again, how do you think they were supposed to behave?

Before you answer, remember, you are talking to someone in the aviation community, someone that knows several test pilots, not to mention senior check airmen for major carriers, well-respected aviation educators, etc., in a fairly wide network. I can assure you that self-aggrandizement is (generally) not a character trait among these men and women; in fact it is a trait that is frowned upon.*

So, as I said, tell me again what behavior they were supposed exhibit?

Oh, before I forget: did you work out that PTFE in an O2 tank thing? How about looking up the term "BLEVE"?

And did you send Jay your contact info?

----------
*As a humorous aside, a few years ago we almost had to force the retired Chief Test Pilot for McDonnell-Douglas to accept a pretty significant and well-deserved award for his achievements as a flight instructor. He kept saying that all he did was teach people about flying.

I would expect Armstrong to try and figure out where he landed..

Being the first man on the moon and presumably an innately curious adventurer/explorer, I would have expected Armstrong to have tried to figure out where it was that he landed once safely back aboard the command module , if not doing so earlier aboard the LM. He had eyes, maps, navigational equipment and so forth.

When he returned to earth and gave the press conference, I would not expect him to jump up and down, but I would expect him to show us all where the first man on the moon landed, and how it was that they made a determination as to where the landing site was.
 
Claiming that I backpedal is more than a little ridiculous Jack by the hedge....

There is not a single point of mine that I do not still stand by;



2) Apollo must be fraudulent because in the case of a real program physicians would have addressed the Borman illness in a very different way than it in fact the matter was addressed.

And what "different way" would that have been? You MUST be specific here.

Also, do you still stand by this statement?

This false claim of course was necessary in a sense because were Borman to have had influenza, Lovell and Anders under those circumstances would be expected to get if for sure.

(emphasis mine)
 
MSFN has to be tracking the ship with precision/accuracy Jay if Bales and the others can see it skirting along so quickly just above the lunar surface.

Exactly backwards. They weren't deriving the motion from the position; they were deriving the position from the motion.

You mean you still have no clue how INS works?
 
Claiming that I backpedal is more than a little ridiculous Jack by the hedge.

No, it's quite evident. I and others have posted side-by-side examples of it that you have never addressed.

There is not a single point of mine that I do not still stand by

Listing points you say you don't back away from does not address those you do back away from. Straw man.

1) Apollo must be fraudulent because in the case of a real program they never would...

Begging the question. Not a backpedal, just an error. And in fact every single item on this list is just a new "rule" you've made up for real space missions. No one is interested in what you pull out of some orifice as your theory for what real space missions ought to look like. They are, however, interested in whether you're willing to talk to the people you're accusing with stuff you've pulled out of an orifice.

2) Apollo must be fraudulent because in the case of a real program physicians would have addressed the Borman illness in a very different way than it in fact the matter was addressed.

Weasel words. In fact first you claim the flight should have been aborted. Then later you claimed the toilet should have been fixed. You clearly changed your story, and you evidently know this because of the way you word it so ambiguously now as to cover both cases.

3) Apollo must be fraudulent because in the case of a real program they never would have sent men to the moon without a more dependable and sophisticated mechanism for aligning the IMU.

You floated several incompatible objections to the IMU operations. You also initially claimed those "clowns" at MIT didn't know anything about stellar navigation, then subsequently referred to them as experts.

4) Apollo must be fraudulent because in the case of a real program they never would have sent Michael Collins to the moon with a LUNAR AREA 2 MAP that featured a targeted landing site intentionally mislabeled with respect to its coordinates.

You waffled incessantly over what exactly you thought was wrong with the maps.

6) Apollo must be fraudulent because in the case of a real program they never would have sent astronauts to the surface of the moon who could not find their location independently, with a high degree of accuracy, without help from the air/Collins, or the ground/MSFN.

No, you've floated several incompatible theories about why the exact coordinates needed to be known. They were all proven wrong, so now you're stuck waffing about incompatible maps.

7) Apollo must be fraudulent because in the case of a real program they never would have sent a man to the moon who would walk around on the lunar surface so casually with his visor raised as Armstrong did.

You can't decide whether his visor is up or down, and you admit this.

8) Apollo must be fraudulent because in the case of a real program they never would have sent the first man to the moon without plans to take at least one dedicated photo of the soon to be world famous explorer/adventurer.

You waffled incessantly on why that would be "necessary." No one bought any of your reasons.

11) Apollo must be fraudulent because in the case of a real program they never would have sent a man to the moon who though being the first man to allegedly walk on the lunar surface, climbed into his command module for the alleged return to earth and made no dedicated effort himself to try and figure out where it was he landed based on his alleged observations.

This is just a summary of your other claims. You're padding your list.

13) Apollo must be fraudulent because in the case of a real program they never would have sent astronauts to the moon in a ship that was allegedly hit by lightening.

Another case in which you first argued that an immediate abort was necessary, but then soften your claim and said they should have just returned to earth after reaching orbit.

14) Apollo must be fraudulent because in the case of a real program they never would have sent men to the moon and employed a flight director, Gene Kranz, a man who new the LM would need to be used as a "lifeboat" before it actually had been determined it would need to be used in such a fashion.

Your flip-flopping on this point is within recent memory. You first claimed Kranz was pulling this plan out of thin air, then backpedalled when your lack of homework was revealed.

Every one of these points is most excellent and I have never backed off on a one.

Every one of those points has been dealt with extensively in this thread, and you simply ignore the refutations. Further, several of your points have been subject to egregious and well-documented goalpost-shifting and reversals. You're deluding yourself.

I'm perplexed at why I still don't have your contact information, Patrick. Are you willing to take all these "excellent" points to the next level? Or are you simply going to wallow further in endless repetition?
 
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