Merged "Iron-rich spheres" - scienctific explanation?

[leftysergeant]

Back on topic, nobody has ruled out the possibility that a lot of the spherules were formed by the burning of self-copying forms or La Clede and Tnemec primer paint. Bear in mind that many of the spherules contain both iron and silicon and aluminum, or are found with associated kaolinite crystals, both of which would be present in both most red paints and self-copying forms.

Reduction of iron oxide into metalic iron, in the bloomery process occurs at much less than 1000C, certainly within the range that could be expected in a major Class A fire.

 

[Christopher7]

Back on topic, nobody has ruled out the possibility that a lot of the spherules were formed by the burning of self-copying forms or La Clede and Tnemec primer paint. Bear in mind that many of the spherules contain both iron and silicon and aluminum, or are found with associated kaolinite crystals, both of which would be present in both most red paints and self-copying forms.

Reduction of iron oxide into metalic iron, in the bloomery process occurs at much less than 1000C, certainly within the range that could be expected in a major Class A fire.

No one has provided evidence of 1000C/1800F yet. Do you know of any data on the temperatures in the TT? I have some somewhere but I'm still looking for it.

People have offered ideas but no data on several possibilities for the origin of the iron spheres.

 

[Ivan Kminek]

Lefty: You are of course right, but try to consider the overall weight of these sources of iron-rich and other microspheres.
In the paint thread, Oystein estimated that (roughly, I'm now lazy to find better numbers) that both Tnemec and Laclede paints weighed several tens of tons, respectively. Also, your self-copying paper should not weigh more (?). Altogether, they should have mass below 100 tons. In proportion to the overall weight of non-metallic WTC rubble and dust (Oystein suggested here something like 400 000 tons), such sources of microspheres could represent something like 0.025 % of the dust/rubble. And, only some minor portions of these sources were subjected to the fires or high temperatures in WTC.
They still can be sources of many microspheres, but not of the majority of them (at least when considering the average concentration of spheres in the range ca 1 - 5 %).

 

[Ivan Kminek]

No one has provided evidence of 1000C/1800F yet. Do you know of any data on the temperatures in the TT? I have some somewhere but I'm still looking for it.

People have offered ideas but no data on several possibilities for the origin of the iron spheres.

Sigh.... Almond, who as a lot of personal experience with the real analyses of dust/ash after fires, explained you several times here, that such round particles (including iron rich) are common in such samples. Have you really read his contributions?

 

[Ivan Kminek]

Btw, does any estimate exists how much of organic materials (furniture, carpets, paper, plastics, paints, sealings etc, etc.) was burned during fires and during/after collapses?

 

[Christopher7]

Sigh.... Almond, who as a lot of personal experience with the real analyses of dust/ash after fires, explained you several times here, that such round particles (including iron rich) are common in such samples. Have you really read his contributions?

Does he have any credible data? Like a publication by a credible lab or firm like RJ Lee? The same with the paint. Have there been tests done to see if iron spheres are created when it is burned and if so, how many?

 

[Ivan Kminek]

Does he have any credible data? Like a publication by a credible lab or firm like RJ Lee? The same with the paint. Have there been tests done to see if iron spheres are created when it is burned and if so, how many?

You are right that Almond should us provide with some experimental data/micrographs etc. in this respect (microspheres found in the dust/ash collected after fires). I'm only not sure if he cares now about this matter that much. Almond, do you hear?

Concerning burned paints, we basically realized (in the Paint thread) that it does not make sense to search for data on some particular red paint (or several such paints). There are too many sorts of paints with dramatically different composition and properties (which is a plain fact apparently unknown to Bentham team) and any such data wouldn't be considered as conclusive (and would be immediatelly refused by truthers anyway).

 

[BasqueArch]

BTW I don't know how that smiley got up there. I didn't post it and can't delete it

Btw, does any estimate exists how much of organic materials (furniture, carpets, paper, plastics, paints, sealings etc, etc.) was burned during fires and during/after collapses?

Re: Creation of iron microspheres.
NIST describes the calculated fuel load in one of their papers, perhaps they describe the quantity of organic materials.
The temperature to melt steel in bulk is ~ 1370C
The flame temperature of burning organic compounds (carpet, wood, plywood, plastic laminates,computer casings,paper,viny wallcovering, fabric over chairs and furniture, fabric over "landscape partitions",plastic plumbing pipes) is ~ 1977C
http://www.derose.net/steve/resources/engtables/flametemp.html

Organic materials burning and non-organic materials exposed to the flame temperatures that contain iron would melt the iron. (Such as acoustic ceiling tiles and steel suspension grids, insulation, paint containing iron, rust on steel-sprinkler pipes or on the structure) This would corroborate Almond's findings.

Also the smaller the particles of iron or steel the lower the melting temperature of these metals.

Melting-point depression

is a term referring to the phenomenon of reduction of the melting point of a material with reduction of its size. This phenomenon is very prominent in nanoscale materials which melt at temperatures hundreds of degrees lower than bulk materials.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Melting-point_depression
and http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0009261407010512

.

 

[Christopher7]

You are right that Almond should us provide with some experimental data/micrographs etc. in this respect (microspheres found in the dust/ash collected after fires). I'm only not sure if he cares now about this matter that much. Almond, do you hear?

Concerning burned paints, we basically realized (in the Paint thread) that it does not make sense to search for data on some particular red paint (or several such paints). There are too many sorts of paints with dramatically different composition and properties (which is a plain fact apparently unknown to Bentham team) and any such data wouldn't be considered as conclusive (and would be immediatelly refused by truthers anyway).

Prof. Jones got some primer off of a piece of steel that is being used for a memorial. Almond could do the same. He would have to document it using his real name or the name of a qualified person to be valid. The same is true for the dust.

 

[leftysergeant]

Lefty: You are of course right, but try to consider the overall weight of these sources of iron-rich and other microspheres.
In the paint thread, Oystein estimated that (roughly, I'm now lazy to find better numbers) that both Tnemec and Laclede paints weighed several tens of tons, respectively. Also, your self-copying paper should not weigh more (?). Altogether, they should have mass below 100 tons.

My point is that paint and self-copying paper would explain many of those spherules which contain high levels of silicon. I remain convinced that there would still be large amounts of welding fume in all the nooks and crannies of the framing and quite likely under the concrete in the floor pans.

 

[sheeplesnshills]

The Truth Movement is asking for an independent investigation with subpoena power.

Under what jurisdiction? independent from what?

No one has shown that large quantities of microspheres can be produced by rubbing two pieces of steel together. The spheres made up nearly 6% of the dust. The RJ Lee Group said "iron melted ... producing spheres", not "friction created the spheres".

LOL This is worthy of a stundie and am pretty sure you don't have a clue why.........

DeniersTwoofers always try to find an alternate explanation for the evidence, no matter how implausible, and insist that's what happened.[/QUOTE]

fixed that for you

 

[Ivan Kminek]

Prof. Jones got some primer off of a piece of steel that is being used for a memorial. Almond could do the same. He would have to document it using his real name or the name of a qualified person to be valid. The same is true for the dust.

Thanks for the suggestions, but:
1) These topics belong to the Paint thread.
2) You should acknowledge that the (second) real study of the WTC dust and red-gray chips in it is already on the way - thanks to Chris Mohr, Jim Millette (who is in charge of this research) and our modest financial contributions. Visit Paint thread, if you are interested.
3) You should know as well that more red primers were used for the corrosion protection of WTC construction steel. Jones owns only one sort of primer (very probably Tnemec brand for perimeter steel). It's quite complicated matter and it is off-topic here.

 

[sheeplesnshills]

Considering high temperatures. They mean in excess of at least 2800F. And ya know it.

prove that claim.........ya know you can't

 

[sheeplesnshills]

Source?

What part of "iron melted" don't you understand?

A better question would be what part of iron melting do YOU not understand.....RJ Lee found it to be expected, others have cited how iron alloys will melt at lower temp and how iron can end up in the dust from other causes.

How many times are you going to repeat this?
Considering the high temperatures i.e. hot enough to melt iron.

Yet experts say it was expected.....why would they say that if it was not true?

In their follow up report in 2004 they said:
The presence of lead oxide on the surface of mineral wool indicate the existence of extremely high temperatures during the collapse

Temperature were extremely high. However thats a relative term.....compared to the surface of the sun they were extremely low......

BTW: There is no data for iron spheres being created by steel framework banging together given in this thread, just opinions based on speculation.

and what data do you have for Thermite?

It has not been established that fly ash was used in the concrete or the amount of iron spheres the concrete would contain if it was.

Indeed but neither has it been established that it was not used. Until you can do so you have no case because its a lot more likely that your thermite.....

 

[Christopher7]

My point is that paint and self-copying paper would explain many of those spherules which contain high levels of silicon. I remain convinced that there would still be large amounts of welding fume in all the nooks and crannies of the framing and quite likely under the concrete in the floor pans.

That's supposition, not science. There may be some microspheres [and up to BB size] in the nooks and crannies, and some left on the floor pans, but not large amounts. You would have to do some on site documented data collecting for that theory to be valid.

 

[Christopher7]

Yet experts say it was expected.....why would they say that if it was not true?

Let me put it this way:
They expected iron to melt at 2800^oF

 

[sheeplesnshills]

That's supposition, not science. There may be some microspheres [and up to BB size] in the nooks and crannies, and some left on the floor pans, but not large amounts. You would have to do some on site documented data collecting for that theory to be valid.

Its no more supposition that your theory and since its you that wants new investigations etc then you need to do the work to prove your case....bet you don't

 

[sheeplesnshills]

Let me put it this way:
They expected iron to melt at 2800^oF

where do they say that? They say no such thing.

 

[DGM]

Nope, It's you. you simply can't understand the way the sentence is worded. Unreal how pathetic that is. Lets call a neutral person in on this discussion and ask them to tell us what that sentence means.. Limitless is bang on Chris7

Pg 21 [pdf pg 25]
The amount of energy introduced during the generation of the WTC Dust and the ensuing conflagration caused various components to vaporize. Vapor phase components with high boiling point and high melting point would have, as they cooled, tended to form precipitated particles or thin film deposits on available surfaces through condensation mechanisms. The results of this process would be the presence of a thin layer of deposited material on the surfaces of the dust particulate matter. Many of the materials, such as lead, cadmium, mercury and various organic compounds, vaporized and then condensed during the WTC Event.

I'm reasonable sure I read it correctly. (I'll help you out with the bold).

 

[Christopher7]

I'm reasonable sure I read it correctly. (I'll help you out with the bold).

Note that it says "during" not "by".