Explain consciousness to the layman.

[Belz...]

No. Not if we are talking about typical computers and light sensors available today. There would be nothing there to do any experiencing.

Okay, then. Does it have proto-qualia ? Because if it senses "red", but doesn't have proto-qualia, how do you define what proto-qualia are and how they are formed ? And we haven't even discussed qualia yet. It seems to me, at this time, as though qualia doesn't actually have a definition.

If, for some reason, you want to find where proto-qualia exists, it would probably be more productive to examine the spectrum of mental processing available in living entities, instead.

Why ? What is it about living organisms that make them have qualia and computers not ?

 

[dlorde]

The article describing chimeric colours pins down colour qualia pretty well. An extraordinary piece of work.

It's just a pity that the plates provided for viewing the stygian, self-luminous, and hyperbolic colours that lie outside the normal human colour space are not really suitable for viewing on screen - but if you've got a high quality printer that is colour accurate, you can print them and see the 'impossible' colours predicted by the mathematical & neural models.

 

[dlorde]

I wonder if there might be some confusion between digital and analogue computation in this thread? As I understand it, the brain uses a kind of hybrid of the two.

 

[westprog]

You're correct that it assumes that consciousness is computation. What's your alternative hypothesis ?

That it's physical.

You're right, of course.



How is that not computational ?



I asked you a simple question to clarify what you said. What you think I meant by it doesn't make me lose sleep one bit. Either answer the question or don't, but don't accuse me of something I didn't do, and don't be surprised if I don't understand your position when you are unwilling to discuss it.

 

[westprog]

I wonder if there might be some confusion between digital and analogue computation in this thread? As I understand it, the brain uses a kind of hybrid of the two.

That's why I referred specifically to Turing machines - Church-Turing being one of the building blocks of the computational approach. Naturally the same people relying on theory about Turing machines are insisting that they don't exist except in a fantasy.

 

[westprog]

What is it about living organisms that make them have qualia and computers not ?

If that is the case, it is due to the physical processes involved.

 

[westprog]

Again, you seem confused by the discussion.

We model reality with unreal things all the time.

Yes, I know that. That's why I gave a long, detailed explanation of the link between the Turing model and actual computers. I'm not the one who is simultaneously using theories about Turing machines to make real world assertions, and insisting that they only exist as a fantasy.

 

[dlorde]

Naturally the same people relying on theory about Turing machines are insisting that they don't exist except in a fantasy.

I don't know about fantasy, but Turing machines are hypothetical abstractions for computational thought experiments, not real devices (e.g. they use an infinite data/instruction tape).

 

[Irony]

That it's physical.

He asked for an "alternative" hypothesis.

What you said is like someone saying "that's a golden retriever" and you saying, "no it isn't, it's a dog".

 

[PixyMisa]

That's why I referred specifically to Turing machines - Church-Turing being one of the building blocks of the computational approach. Naturally the same people relying on theory about Turing machines are insisting that they don't exist except in a fantasy.

The same way the Theory of Relativity doesn't exist except in a fantasy?

 

[tsig]

If that is the case, it is due to the physical processes involved.

The physical processes in the human mind are different than the physical processes in a computer?

 

[Wowbagger]

Okay, then. Does it have proto-qualia ? Because if it senses "red", but doesn't have proto-qualia, how do you define what proto-qualia are and how they are formed ? And we haven't even discussed qualia yet. It seems to me, at this time, as though qualia doesn't actually have a definition.

If and when we figure out how the sense of qualia emerges in our consciousness, we will probably know the steps that would lead to it. Proto-qualia would have some, but not all, of the stages of what we would figure out qualia to be. The answers will become more specific, once the details become more specific.

Why ? What is it about living organisms that make them have qualia and computers not ?

Nothing in particular, except a history of evolutionary mental development. Living organisms, especially those more closely related to us, are much more likely to possess some of the stages of proto-qualia, than a computer system which had not been given the opportunity to evolve in that particular direction. That is all!

 

[Leumas]

Alan Turning

Seeing that Alan Turing is being mentioned I wonder if anyone knows about a little OUTRAGEOUS factoid about Alan Turning.


The British government in 1952 caused this one of the most brilliant minds in the history of humanity to commit suicide.

He was a homosexual and the British government decided to chemically castrate him for it..... BY THE LAW of England at the time....it was a COURT SENTENCE due to him being a homosexual.

And that despite the fact that the man had already contributed to Britain more than most heterosexuals of his time.

But as you already know, it was not just Britain that benefited from his talents it was the whole world. The field of Computer Science would not be what it is if it were not for him.

Alan Turing committed suicide in 1954 after two years of the OUTRAGEOUS treatment he received UNDER THE LAW of that benighted and stupid stupid age (just as stupid as we are today about so many other things).

This fabulous brain was extinguished at the age of 42. Imagine what advances to humanity he could have achieved in another 30 or more years had he lived the rest of his life expectancy.

When is the human race ever going to wake up and realize the atrocities committed by CLOSE-MINDEDNESS and fear of the different and LAWS created by BIGOTS.

Next time someone says that "we are a land of laws" and wants to enforce these laws regardless of humanitarian considerations whatsoever.... by gosh s/he better think long and hard about what has been done in the name of laws created by small minded people throughout history.

 

[Guybrush Threepwood]

Seeing that Alan Turing is being mentioned I wonder if anyone knows about a little OUTRAGEOUS factoid about Alan Turning.

Since there's a petition to have him posthumously pardoned, and a thread about it, I suspect some people do

This fabulous brain was extinguished at the age of 42. Imagine what advances to humanity he could have achieved in another 30 or more years had he lived the rest of his life expectancy.

Tragic as his demise was, he was more than a little eccentric, and it's quite possible he would have ended up spending years railing against global warming or relativity in green ink

 

[westprog]

The physical processes in the human mind are different than the physical processes in a computer?

There are different physical processes going on in a mind than in a computer, yes. For example, there aren't many chemical reactions happening in a computer.

Of course, there are many other physical systems which operate on the same laws as computers and brains. I don't think it's proposed that they all produce consciousness.

 

[Complexity]

Since there's a petition to have him posthumously pardoned, and a thread about it, I suspect some people do

Tragic as his demise was, he was more than a little eccentric, and it's quite possible he would have ended up spending years railing against global warming or relativity in green ink

Much of his 'eccentricity' may have been to Asperger's (or so the speculation goes) or some similar condition.

While your guesses about what he might have done had he lived are 'quite possible', I think them extremely unlikely. We lost many years of having a remarkable mind amongst us. He was treated despicably and that without cause.

 

[Complexity]

There are different physical processes going on in a mind than in a computer, yes. For example, there aren't many chemical reactions happening in a computer.

So you really don't understand anything about the nature of computation.

The physical processes don't matter at all - it could all be done with marbles (I always wanted to build a marble-based computer).

You are getting hung up on the most trivial things. Please go and learn a lot more before venturing into this topic again.

 

[Leumas]

Since there's a petition to have him posthumously pardoned, and a thread about it, I suspect some people do.

I did not know about the thread....thanks for the pointer.

Tragic as his demise was, he was more than a little eccentric, and it's quite possible he would have ended up spending years railing against global warming or relativity in green ink

I am not concerned about his politics.... I am more concerned with what INNOVATIONS and inventions and advances to science he could have done.

Every time I read about such outrages of human injustice I cringe at the thought of how this kind of thing is in most cases caused by religious people doing God's work....or damned politicians.

I think every time someone wants to shout “we are a land of laws” s/he ought to think hard about the bigotry, small mindedness and benightedness and special interests behind the LAWS that caused the killing of Alan Turing and Giordano Bruno and many many more we do not remember.

 

[PixyMisa]

So you really don't understand anything about the nature of computation.

The physical processes don't matter at all - it could all be done with marbles (I always wanted to build a marble-based computer).

 

[Leumas]

COOL..... very nice.