Merged Apollo "hoax" discussion / Lick observatory laser saga

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AND also, one of the diagnoses that was being considered was INFLUENZA, and being "considered" I might add most appropriately so. Inappropriately, very inappropriately, influenza was discounted as according to the eminently avoidable good doctor Charles Berry, influenza vaccination guarantees immunity. Yes you heard that right Tomblvd, Charles Berry thinks that receiving an influenza vaccination guarantees immunity.
Can someone fluent in hysterics translate this for me?



The medical team considered the possibility that Borman had influenza. They rejected it because he had been vaccinated against it. This was a mistake. They wrongly assumed that the influenza vaccine guaranteed immunity.
 
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I feel like a broken record...

You are a broken record. On every point you raise, you get backed into a corner and then change the subject. You repeat yourself to a very annoying degree, apparently unaware that repeating your belief does not make it true.

...but since your side keeps raising the same objection...

We raise the same objections because you assiduously fail to address them. You flee from the objections by changing the subject, and then come back to it after your opponents' recollections have been "reset" regarding where the discussion was. This is classic conspiracy-theorist behavior. You guys all do this. It's a technique for perpetuating a discussion and getting attention without really participating.

...I shall continue to dose you with a bit of reality.

No, you're just going to stubbornly repeat your uninformed, ill-conceived belief.

As such, in a hospital, a man like Borman would be...

...in an entirely different context than a man like Borman in a spaceship. You stubbornly refuse to consider the circumstances under which flight surgeons operated here. You want to hold them responsible for what you think they should have done if Borman was in a nice safe hospital.

Since you're so fond of Gedankenexperimenten, I gave you one regarding moving a patient who had been critically injured -- only I "forgot" to tell you he was laying on a train track in front of an oncoming train. Since you conspicuously ignored that thought experiment, I think you realize that context is everything in this decision and that you're fighting a losing battle no matter how much pseudo-medical experience you profess to have.

So in the context of being evaluated by real docs, Borman would be viewed as an individual with infected stool.

You're not qualified to make that determination, or any of the ones that follow.

In all of the eight months you've had to flounder about on this point, you've failed to produce even one single qualified medical professional to endorse your beliefs. Not one.

Read the references I mentioned above.

The references document what happened. They do not prove your point. Where your argument lacks credibility is in your claim that what happened was somehow inappropriate. Since you waffle back and forth on whether you're a doctor (and therefore are clearly lying), and since you cannot provide any verifiable medical testimony to back up your belief, and since other medical testimony contradicts your belief, your argument fails -- and fails badly. You want to beg the question that what happened was improper.

No doctor had EVER dealt with a situation like that before DEADLY AND NOVEL AND IT WOULD CONTINUE TO BE UNTIL ADDRESSED.

Asked and answered. Your layman's opinion on what is "deadly and novel," and what the appropriate response should have been from the medical community, is irrelevant.

...in microscopic but nevertheless dangerous quantities.

You have failed to show that the "danger" you speak of exceeds what the normal human is exposed to. In fact, you failed to do that back at BAUT eight months ago when this objection was raised, and you're still trying to tell your same story to anyone who will listen.

...this one little strangely embarrassing NASA gaffe.

Embarrassing indeed. In eight months you haven't been able to explain why NASA, with all its army of war-veteran military-trained flight surgeous, wasn't able to come up with a plausible illness and a plausible medical aftermath. Your claim is that NASA was so inept at script-writing that they couldn't avoid making a mistake that every physician in the world could see as a major blunder. Further, they let all the participants in the story free-associate on it in the media, making it very public.

Oh, except that "plausibility" in this case is being measured against Bike-Shop Pat's personal beliefs, which have nothing to with proper medical practice. At least not to any extent he's willing to document. And even though he claims any physician in the world would say the same as he, he can't provide one single name of a physician with verifiable qualifications who will endorse his claims.

Bluff and bluster, Patrick. Bluff and bluster.

You are not dealing with the real facts as a physician would.

You're not qualifed to offer that judgment. Real physicians have dealt with it. Your layman's opinion is irrelevant.

Most docs once they looked at this would recognize it as "weird"/fake. The problem with it all is how many docs know what Charles Berry had to say about all of this phony business? Not many......

And the backpedaling begins.
 
OK RAF, now you can be sure this one did not come from YouTube...


Blah, blah, blah...I don't know how they did something, so they must not have done it, therefore the missions were faked.

In other words, your usual load of garbage.
 
...considering you have already admitted to not being a doctor, this whole "INFECTIOUS DIARRHEA!!!!" stuff is truly ludicrous.

Indeed...lying about being an MD is pretty "low"...and completely debunks all the medical "opinions" he has presented.


...and allow me to remind that he did this to himself.
 
And now Patrick, the admitted non-engineer, tries to wade into the highly demanding profession of forensic engineering. Patrick, does it ever occur to you that the topics you dabble in are those that some of us have practiced for a living, for decades, after an initial decade or more of rigorous training and licensing?

No one knew untill the astronauts "returned " from cislunar space that an O2 tank, or cryogenic tank explosion of any sort, was responsible for the Apollo 13 staged disaster.

False. Confirmation that the tank itself had been the root cause of its own failure, rather than the victim of an external damage source, did not come until later. Knowledge that the tank had likely been irrepairably damaged was readily available approximately 45 minutes into the incident and appropriately drove the incident response at that time. You certainly don't know how to read forensic engineering reports.

It was not not not until the astronauts returned from their feigned mission that such a determination was made.

False. It was not determined until after the mission that the root cause of the tank failure was in the tank itself. The tank still failed, and there was plenty of evidence of that failure point during the mission.

Your layman's interpretation is simplistic, inaccurate, and incorrect. And that is my professional opinion.

As a consequence, one may conclude with unmitigated metaphysical certainty

Nonsense words.

...some of the story's principals including Flight Director Gene Kranz himself

...whom you are terrified to approach in person...

Kranz had foreknowledge of an INTERNAL cryogenic tank explosion, and so as surprising as it may be to some, one may confirm Kranz's perpetrator status with utter confidence.

Then accuse Kranz of it directly! Claim your well-deserved reward and ascend to the throne of Greatest Apollo Historian of All Time. Hurry up, before he passes on. Send me your contact information and I will expedite a request for a meeting with his office. What are you waiting for? You have incontrovertible proof, right? You have a golden opportunity in the form of someone who is both willing and able to facilitate such a summit. Face him, and let him face his accuser directly. Put your money where your mouth is.

No, instead you've shifted the goalposts again. You've deftly inserted the "internal" qualifier into your latest summary twist of Kranz' publications, although it was not part of the discussion until you read the Kluger passage. Now you're trying to morph your claim so that it appears to stand in direct contradiction to Kluger, regardless of what Kranz may have actually said or believed.

The retrospective sources you cite are retrospective. You don't get to backfill their present-day omniscience into what happened 40 years ago. And you have yet to answer the other examples of historical omniscience that contradict your interpretation. In fact, Gene Kranz describes the tank failure three times across two pages of the relevant chapter. You've chosen to focus only on one of them. In the paragraph prior to that, Kranz writes that something had "taken out" their cryogenics. He writes here as if the cryogenic system was the subject of some occurrence, not the agent of it. You seem fond of reading mountains of meaning into dissections of Kranz' writings, so how did you miss that one?

The contemporary sources you cite are one hundred percent in support of an evolving understanding of the accident, a process that continues in fact until the present day. In 2012 I'm still writing articles and classes on how to train operators to think better and how to engineer machines that introspect better, using Apollo 13 as an example.

You clearly have no experience in forensice engineering or any kind of forensic or investigative science. The operators of a space mission are tasked with responding to indications of failure. We know that those indications, at all stages of action, will be incomplete and contradictory. Nevertheless we entrust operators to follow defensible lines of reasoning and inquiry and take appropriate action in the face of that uncertainty.

The first rule when faced with confusion is -- do nothing. That is, if you don't have evidence that suggests a response, don't change the course of the system unless failure is otherwise certain. The system may yet provide you with additional time-coherent information that is free from the new effects of your meddling.

Then you employ various methods of criticality analysis based on your understanding of the need the system is trying to fulfill, the consequences of proposed actions, the consequences of inaction, and the urgency suggested by the level of coupling in the system. Based on the state of the art at that time, the Mission Control team did an acceptable job of analysis.

At the 15-minute mark they were finally able to integrate enough information to understand that they had a loss of cryogenic function. By the 45-minute mark they had exhausted their immediately available options for correcting the loss within the criticality envelope. Hence the effort shifted to correcting the criticality consequences by secondary means -- the lifeboat. Work on the CSM shifted from preserving it as the primary spacecraft to preserving it as the only viable re-entry vehicle.

At no time in any of this process was in necessary to know why the tank had failed. They only needed to know that the tank had failed. They had already concluded that whatever the cause, it could not be corrected by any means at their disposal within the time limit imposed by needing to have breathable oxygen and electrical power for the crew. Do not mistake contemporary assertiveness in statements or actions to some hypothetical foreknowledge.

All their actions, statements, and analysis at every step of the process was consistent with what they knew or reasonably believed at the time. This would include provisional models of the failure. Those models don't have to be absolutely correct or complete, but are useful so long as the ambiguity is not resolved by acting preclusively. It may be helpful to know the full root-cause analysis of some failure while dealing with it, but it's not essential, and almost never possible.

What you're advocating is tantamount to a doctor declining to treat a patient until the autopsy determines conclusively what he had.
 
The medical team considered the possibility that Borman had influenza. They rejected it because he had been vaccinated against it. This was a mistake. They wrongly assumed that the influenza vaccine guaranteed immunity.

Impressive.

I'd make a comment about lawyers and hysterics, but I just remembered you're a mod. ;)

Patrick, the reason the physicians (NOTE: there was a group of them, not just one) were reasonably sure it was a 24 hr flu is because it was the same thing half of the space workers at Cape Kennedy were suffering from at the same time. The flight surgeons were virtually sure the other 2 astronauts would come down with it, given its virulence, but they never did. By the next day, Borman was feeling better.

You get sick.

You get over it.

You move on.

That's my medical opinion.
 
As mentioned many times previously and all more significantly, were any of this real, after Apollo 8, "real" physicians would have insisted on a change in the pooping protocol.
Since no "real" physicians have "insisted on a change in the pooping protocol", can we safely assume that they were all in on the hoax too then? All of them? All of the "real" physicians in the US (at the very least)? That's a lot of co-conspirators. Or is it more likely that "real" physicians don't have a problem with the existing "pooping protocol" when all things are considered? I know which one sounds more likely to me but I'd like to hear your answer.
 
...it was not until AFTER examining the photographs of the blown out service bay brought back to earth by the Apollo 13 crew that NASA's forensic specialists(Apollo 13 disaster investigation committee) were able to determine that the spaceship was not hit by meteor or other rogue projectile. The pictures once examined revealed to the Apollo 13 investigators that there must have been an explosion in the oxygen/cryogenic tank itself. This point cannot be overemphasized. No one knew untill the astronauts "returned " from cislunar space that an O2 tank, or cryogenic tank explosion of any sort, was responsible for the Apollo 13 staged disaster. It was not not not until the astronauts returned from their feigned mission that such a determination was made.

As a consequence, one may conclude with unmitigated metaphysical certainty, that the Apollo 13 Mission was ever so fraudulent as some of the story's principals including Flight Director Gene Kranz himself knew how the story would end before it had ever begun. Kranz had foreknowledge of an INTERNAL cryogenic tank explosion, and so as surprising as it may be to some, one may confirm Kranz's perpetrator status with utter confidence.

They knew "something" had gone wrong, just not exactly what or why - that's your evidence of fraud?
 
They knew "something" had gone wrong, just not exactly what or why - that's your evidence of fraud?

And yet in the case of Apollo 12 where they knew the cause and took time to assess potential damage Patrick1000 insisted they should have taken instant action and aborted, which seems more than a little hypocritical.
 
As mentioned many times previously and all more significantly, were any of this real, after Apollo 8, "real" physicians would have insisted on a change in the pooping protocol.

What do you base this opinion on? You certainly have not presented any evidence that actual physicians think Apollo was faked, so why post something that is so easily debunked?
 
Since no "real" physicians have "insisted on a change in the pooping protocol", can we safely assume that they were all in on the hoax too then? All of them? All of the "real" physicians in the US (at the very least)? That's a lot of co-conspirators. Or is it more likely that "real" physicians don't have a problem with the existing "pooping protocol" when all things are considered? I know which one sounds more likely to me but I'd like to hear your answer.

All Apollo Hoax proponents have to assume that all real doctors, engineers, scientists, geologists etc are too stupid to see it's all fake.
 
It is a claim RAF......

What do you base this opinion on? You certainly have not presented any evidence that actual physicians think Apollo was faked, so why post something that is so easily debunked?

It is a claim RAF. Let me take that back... Better said, as it is true, it is rather more than a claim I should say. It is a point of FACT......

I claim Dr. Charles Berry participates in the fraudulent Apollo Program as he is a well trained physician, yet his "practice" of medicine when it comes to the care of his charges, the astronauts, is beyond derelict. The fact that the astronauts too are participating in the fraud, in no way invalidates the charge nor diminshes its serious nature.
 
I don't.... I think the scam is rather ingeniously subtle.....

All Apollo Hoax proponents have to assume that all real doctors, engineers, scientists, geologists etc are too stupid to see it's all fake.

I don't.... I think the scam is rather ingeniously subtle.....

True enough, once one begins to look at actual source materials, Mission Reports and do forth, well then it is obviously FAKE. But how many docs, engineers, scientists do that? Read those things with great care to find the inconsistencies? I never did, 'til I got curious that is after stumbling upon my first Neil Armstrong gaffe.

I mean, take a look at Kranz, the crying, the tears!!!!!, the hand wringing, the whole bit. I NEVER thought him a perp before. On a mainstream level, superficial level Kranz looks true blue, red, and white. So it is tricky that way. On the other hand , once you start reading the Apollo 13 source materials, listen to the EECOM tapes and so forth, well then Kranz hits ya' over the head with his ineptness/clumsiness/OBVIOUSNESS as a perp. Go figure.

It is actually one of the most interesting things about the Apollo Program Fraud, that insanely ironic aspect, so patently phony on one level and so illogically effective on another. I bought in until last April...
 
It is a point of FACT......

No...you have presented zero evidence to support that idea...summarily rejected.

I claim Dr. Charles Berry participates in the fraudulent Apollo Program as he is a well trained physician, yet his "practice" of medicine when it comes to the care of his charges, the astronauts, is beyond derelict.

By what "investigative methods" were you able to determined that? You admitted that you lied about being an MD, so why should anyone even care what your medical "opinion" is????

Personally, once a person lies to me, I can never trust that person again.
 
Kranz Lies Very Explicitly In the History Channel Film....

MODERN MARVELS: APOLLO 13.....

Go 11 minutes into this film. One will see Kranz look directly at the camera and hear the "flight director" state very plainly that Lovell made the claim when he saw the "gaseous substance" venting that this substance was in fact oxygen. This call of Lovell's was 14/15 minutes into the drama remember. Lovell most definitely did not say this. Lovell did NOT say that it was oxygen that was venting at the time of that heads up call 14/15 minutes in.

More importantly, Kranz repeats on camera in this film very explicitly what he wrote in his book, that at the time of the Lovell "I think we may be venting something" call, Kranz became aware at that time that it was some type of "explosion" responsible for the Apollo 13 difficulties.

No one could have known this at that time, that an explosion was responsible for the damage. As I have indicated previously, Kranz's acknowledgement of explosion foreknowledge here incriminates him as one of the chief fraud artists.
 
...once you start reading the Apollo 13 source materials, listen to the EECOM tapes and so forth, well then Kranz hits ya' over the head with his ineptness/clumsiness/OBVIOUSNESS as a perp. Go figure.

Yeah...go figure that NO ONE HERE AGREES WITH YOU. We've read the transcripts and heard the tapes, and your "interpretation" of those materials agrees with NO ONE familiar with space flight.

Do you understand?....I wouldn't ask, but I'm not sure your understand that NO ONE HERE AGREES WITH YOU.

Oh, and when will you be admitting your mistake re. no LM lifeboat assessment before the flight??...the longer you deny your mistake, the worse it "reflects" on YOU.
 
No one could have known this at that time, that an explosion was responsible for the damage.

Says the "fake" MD?..or perhaps the "fake" spacecraft engineer??

You have demonstrated, over and over, that you simply do not have the educational "tools" to makes such determinations...and you've given us no reason to think your "lay person" ideas are in any way related to reality.
 
MODERN MARVELS: APOLLO 13.....

Go 11 minutes into this film. One will see Kranz look directly at the camera and hear the "flight director" state very plainly that Lovell made the claim when he saw the "gaseous substance" venting that this substance was in fact oxygen. This call of Lovell's was 14/15 minutes into the drama remember. Lovell most definitely did not say this. Lovell did NOT say that it was oxygen that was venting at the time of that heads up call 14/15 minutes in.

More importantly, Kranz repeats on camera in this film very explicitly what he wrote in his book, that at the time of the Lovell "I think we may be venting something" call, Kranz became aware at that time that it was some type of "explosion" responsible for the Apollo 13 difficulties.

No one could have known this at that time, that an explosion was responsible for the damage.


You know, even if any of that were in any way true, you'd think that a doctor would know a little bit more about how the brain stores and retrieves memories.

The TV episode was made in 2001. The Apollo 13 mission took place in 1970. That's a thirty-one year-old memory Kranz' brain is tasked with recalling.

It is now medically known that memories are neither complete nor fixed. The brain remember certain pieces of information and interpolates the rest. Memory can and is affected by new information that a person learns after the fact, even if that information contradicts the actual event.

In the recent documentary series "Test Your Brain," a small crowd witnessed a staged robbery. They were interviewed right after the event, then a few weeks after. Then they were fed false information by confederates pretending to be fellow witnesses and interviewed again. Some individuals changed their stories three times. Even where they had initially gotten a detail right, their memories were influenced to adopt incorrect details.

Not only that, but the mere fact of remembering an event can cause it to degrade. When a person remember something, the brain calls the memory back up into the processing areas as though the person were reliving it. New stimuli can change the memory. It is then put back into storage in its rewritten form, like overwriting an old version of a document with a new one. The original memory is gone.

Medical doctors are now attempting to treat post traumatic stress by having patients relive events.

So, using a memoir to contradict contemporaneous records is almost always a mistake. Don't take my word for it. Read about how to do good historical research from http://www.williamcronon.net/researching/documents.htm an actual historian.
 
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