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UFOs: The Research, the Evidence

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Well, at least you're honest (even if it was by accident) -- you're looking to increase your hits to jack up the cash, and you figure that if you can convince some people to write articles that on the surface are "skeptical" but which don't actually contain any of that pesky skepticism, you'll be the clever one.

Let me guess. The approval process for "skeptical" articles would just accidentally happen to exclude all those articles that demonstrated the fact that nobody has yet ever provided solid, verifiable evidence that aliens exist?

If he really was serious about this he would ask permission to have the following webpage (kindly linked by Stray Cat in this post http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7944194&postcount=16722) linked to on his own site.

http://home.comcast.net/~tprinty/UFO/Mexico04e.htm
 
You are creating a straw man, a straw man about what I said you were dead wrong about.

I did not say you were dead wrong that Campeche was a fair comparison or not to the D.C. incident. You said that Campeche was irrelevant merely because it was not the D.C. incident:



You did not say that Campeche wasn't analogous because radar isn't FLIR, etc. You said it was moving goalposts because Campeche is not Washington D.C.

You may think this is a minor point, but a logical chain is no more strong than its weakest link.


I've pointed out more than one way that the two cases differ, but since you want to focus on the location, and that suggests that there is some reasonable comparison, perhaps you can tell me where the off-shore oil platforms are are around Washington D.C.
 
If he really was serious about this he would ask permission to have the following webpage (kindly linked by Stray Cat in this post http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7944194&postcount=16722) linked to on his own site.

http://home.comcast.net/~tprinty/UFO/Mexico04e.htm



And it would be a bad thing to get more hits because of skeptical contributions ... why?

And it's a bad thing that a ufology interest group asks for skeptical input ... why?

BTW: Where is the info on the jet intercept someone mentioned back there that was connected with some kind of analysis by Macabee?

BTW: I noticed nobody has provided anything other than offhanded dismissals and unfounded proclamations for the Washington D.C. 1952 radar/visual F-94 intercept, and instead we've now been diverted from that to the Campehe incident ... which is turning out to be a fairly interesting case from the perspective of skeptics vs ufologists, so at least it still hasn't been a total waste of time, thanks for the link there.
 
I've pointed out more than one way that the two cases differ, but since you want to focus on the location, and that suggests that there is some reasonable comparison, perhaps you can tell me where the off-shore oil platforms are are around Washington D.C.


You've missed the entire point. You can't see the forest for the trees.

His point is not that the Maryland/Delaware/Virginia area has oil wells that were mistaken for flying craft.

His point is that the DC sighting is probably similar to the Campeche incident, in that the cause was likely something earthly and mundane, yet so completely unexpected that none of the principals in the event were able to recognize it.

The only reason the Campeche incident was resolved at all is because the story spread so quickly to so many independent researchers via the Internet, allowing individuals and groups to examine the minutiae in great detail. Accurate maps and satellite photos were readily available, as were operational and technical information about the aircraft and monitoring systems involved. Anybody can buy a FLIR night-vision setup in the hunting department of the local Sportmart, for chrissakes. In addition to all that, public discourse on the Internet undeniably increased the chances of somebody putting 2+2 together.

Now compare that to the early 1950s when, except for the odd letter to the editor and such, all public media were one-way conduits of information. Sure, lots of people probably talked about the "case" over their morning coffee, but everybody didn't have access to detailed maps and satellite imagery of the entire world right at their fingertips. The details of the relevant technology were little-known military secrets. People did not have online forums to share ideas and resources. There were no organizations of laypeople dedicated to promoting skepticism and critical thinking.

Back in those days—just as now—most people did not question the information they were told in the news. If the papers said it was flying saucers from outer space, and some military guy was quoted in the article as not denying that interpretation, that's what many folks believed. As for the newsmen themselves, the editors in chief understood what kinds of stories sell papers. Back then—just as now—they tended to run the kind of material that's likely to bring in the most ad revenue, and everybody knows flying saucers were all the rage and sold a lot of papers in the 1950s.

Now, 60 years later, the opportunity for investigation into the 1952 DC craze is pretty much over. Too many of the details have been lost to time, and none of the official reports obtained through FOIA actually corroborate the sensationalistic newspaper stories of the day. Even the principals in the actual event have denied seeing any alien spacecraft, yet we still have some self-deluded individuals who insist that it was ZOMG aliens!!! and that the whole thing was covered up in a big conspiracy of the US gubmint just to keep its citizens in the dark for some unclear reason.

By the way ufology, when are you going to present the "plenty of evidence" you boasted about, that supposedly proves that alien spaceships were theorized by the military and then the whole thing got covered up?
 
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Again the skeptics provide the research while the ufologists provide hyperbolic mystery stories that they complete with OMG aliens conclusions.
 
You've missed the entire point. You can't see the forest for the trees.

His point is not that the Maryland/Delaware/Virginia area has oil wells that were mistaken for flying craft.

His point is that the DC sighting is probably similar to the Campeche incident, in that the cause was likely something earthly and mundane, yet so completely unexpected that none of the principals in the event were able to recognize it.


John Albert,

I'm pretty sure Paul can answer for himself. But to address your point, it isn't sufficient equivalence to say that just like Campeche the objects were probably some mundane object. You could say that about anything. There needs to be something more specific and in the Campeche case the central theory for the explanation is that what was picked up on the FLIR were distant oil well flares. So where are the oil well flares in the DC incident? Or any flares for that matter and how do FLIR videos correspond to the sharply defined ground based RADAR targets ( a completely different technology ) that allowed the F-94 to be vectored to the object?
 
And it would be a bad thing to get more hits because of skeptical contributions ... why?

And it's a bad thing that a ufology interest group asks for skeptical input ... why?

BTW: Where is the info on the jet intercept someone mentioned back there that was connected with some kind of analysis by Macabee?

BTW: I noticed nobody has provided anything other than offhanded dismissals and unfounded proclamations for the Washington D.C. 1952 radar/visual F-94 intercept, and instead we've now been diverted from that to the Campehe incident ... which is turning out to be a fairly interesting case from the perspective of skeptics vs ufologists, so at least it still hasn't been a total waste of time, thanks for the link there.


Forcing myself to be polite in the face of complete and utter ignorance....

Where did anyone say that linking properly researched, referenced and scientifically accurate, critical analyses of UFO "cases" would be a bad thing?

The point of my post was that you wouldn't link to that page because it undermines your whole worldview. Prove me wrong.

Now, and this was the whole point of my post #16757, as has already been asked, why is it always the skeptics that end up actually doing the research and finding the answers? Can you see the irony in the fact that I posted this question:

As a follow-up question, can you, in your own words, describe what you think "research" involves? I'm not after a copy/paste definition from Wikipedia or any other source, I want to know what YOU think it involves.

... and you reply with the above?

Further, I realise that there are many different questions being asked of you but please don't try and say that the conversation is being steered in any kind of direction with some kind of evil intent.

Right so, can you answer my post number 16757?
 
All I'm looking for here is some info from the skeptics on more recent sightings. How about those videos where it looks like there is some kind of swirling vortex in the sky? I was thinking CGI hoaxs and/or rocket tests but I don't have any specific details about launches or that sort of thing. They have been seen over Australia, China, Norway and elsewhere. Can anyone here put together a serious debunking report on these that I can post up on our site? That would be a real show of constructive input.
Being a skeptic isn't a closed shop. You're not born a skeptic, or have to go to college to train to be a skeptic. You can become one, literally overnight. All you have to do is start to think critically. There's a wealth of information on these forums about how that's done, including examples to get you into the swing of things.

This is how I learnt, and you can do this too. So, instead of asking someone else to write you a skeptical piece for your website on the Norway spiral, how about you do it? Then you'd have intellectual ownership of the article and you'd learn a lot more along the way by going through the steps yourself. It would be your own piece of skeptical research! :)

Some starter threads from here on JREF at the time of the incident:

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=161715

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=161635

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=169412

Happy researching!
 
Tauri,

Actually my apologies, I never noticed you were a girl.
If I was being mean I could launch into a tirade about how your powers of observation don't match the credit that you've given to peoples' skills of perception in various posts in this thread. But I'm feeling fairly charitable today (it must be the attention :D ) so I'll not make a big deal of it, just point out the discrepancy in passing. ;)

And if you really want to argue about UFOs that's cool. It's just that I didn't come here to argue so much as to find skeptics who can write constructive skeptical articles that I can post on our website to help give it balance. I've just added a retail book section on Skepticism and Critical Thinking. The reason I get drawn into the arguments here is to provide food for thought for those who watch but don't participate and to let people hesitant to become involved for fear of ridicule know that not everyone here is going to attack them.
Who knows what your motivation for being here is, folo, but to be totally honest it matters not one jot. Not why you first came here, nor why you stay. Right now, you appear to be attempting to convince others here at that some Omgaliens flew over Washington DC in 1952, but I don't think you're making much progress with that.

If you want to post skeptical articles on your website then go right ahead. Ask Mr Printy if you can link to his page containing the back issues of Sunlite, or write your own essay summarising everything you've learnt on this thread over the preceding months about critical thinking, the scientific method and the weight to be given to different types of evidence.
 
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Fantastic ideas 23_Tauri.

My main misgiving though is that poor old 'fology doesn't, at this point, really understand what's involved in quality research. Having said that though, if he's really interested in doing it properly he'll most likely get the idea along the way.
 
Ya you got me on that one Tauri ... good slam there.
I'm sorry, sometimes I do not understand your 'Murrican lingo. I don't know what you're on about, as I've hardly been trying to pull the wool over anyone's eyes about my gender.

Now try and go easy on me for a while OK. I'm sensitive about being picked on by girls. ;)
Oooh, maybe. ;) Depends on how many silly things you say before tea-time. :p
 
Fantastic ideas 23_Tauri.

My main misgiving though is that poor old 'fology doesn't, at this point, really understand what's involved in quality research. Having said that though, if he's really interested in doing it properly he'll most likely get the idea along the way.
I share your reservations, Krikkiter. However, if folo wants to be a Real UfologistTM, then he needs to learn how to do research. And as we all know, the best way to learn is through trying something yourself and then asking questions if you get stuck.

He won't learn anything by asking others in class to do his homework for him, right?
 
I read the CSI account of the Campeche incident, but it doesn't mention any attempted intercept by a military jet corroborated by radar as has been mentioned here. Does anyone have a link to that information?
It turns out that even though Maccabee has removed the webpage, the document is still on his sever; http://brumac.8k.com/MexicanDOD5mar04/

It clearly says that a radar return was detected and the plane turned to follow the signal. "Intercept" doesn't mean 'shoot down', the plane wasn't a fighter.
 
John Albert,

I'm pretty sure Paul can answer for himself. But to address your point, it isn't sufficient equivalence to say that just like Campeche the objects were probably some mundane object. You could say that about anything. There needs to be something more specific and in the Campeche case the central theory for the explanation is that what was picked up on the FLIR were distant oil well flares. So where are the oil well flares in the DC incident? Or any flares for that matter and how do FLIR videos correspond to the sharply defined ground based RADAR targets ( a completely different technology ) that allowed the F-94 to be vectored to the object?

Ok, you're choosing to go the deliberately obtuse route. Why do you think there are oil wells around Washington DC? Which mundane explanations have you eliminated as the cause of the Washington DC story? What are "sharply defined ground based RADAR targets" when discussing 1950 radar? How did you eliminate mundane UFOs ( witches ) as the explanation?
 
...And it's a bad thing that a ufology interest group asks for skeptical input ... why?...
Probably because we don't trust your motives.

The following from your website is your definition of Skeptics.
A skeptic is someone who subscribes to the philosophy that true knowledge of reality is unattainable. More generically, it is someone who tends to question the truth of things that are of a contentious nature. In ufology, the involvement of skeptics has largely been that of criticism and debunking.

Note the poisoning of the well in the very first sentence - by using the philosophical/archaic definition of (a) "Skeptic":
( initial capital letter ) Philosophy .
a. a member of a philosophical school of ancient Greece, the earliest group of which consisted of Pyrrho and his followers, who maintained that real knowledge of things is impossible.
b. any later thinker who doubts or questions the possibility of real knowledge of any kind

rather than the more pertinent and in context definitions of "skeptic"
1. a person who questions the validity or authenticity of something purporting to be factual.
2. a person who maintains a doubting attitude, as toward values, plans, statements, or the character of others

 
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I'm pretty sure Paul can answer for himself. But to address your point, it isn't sufficient equivalence to say that just like Campeche the objects were probably some mundane object. You could say that about anything. There needs to be something more specific and in the Campeche case the central theory for the explanation is that what was picked up on the FLIR were distant oil well flares. So where are the oil well flares in the DC incident? Or any flares for that matter and how do FLIR videos correspond to the sharply defined ground based RADAR targets ( a completely different technology ) that allowed the F-94 to be vectored to the object?


I'm pretty sure you missed the point. The point is, since you're the one claiming that some UFOs are alien craft, then it's your responsibility to demonstrate that claim to be true. Every time you try to foist your responsibility off on other people you're abandoning that responsibility. And that is dishonest.

You want the bottom line on all your questions above as it relates to this discussion and to your claim? Here is is: Has any investigation into the incident objectively resulted in the determination that anyone saw an alien craft? Yes, that's one of those yes/no questions that scare "ufologists" like spiders scare little girls. But no, it won't hurt you to answer it honestly.
 
So where are the oil well flares in the DC incident? Or any flares for that matter and how do FLIR videos correspond to the sharply defined ground based RADAR targets ( a completely different technology ) that allowed the F-94 to be vectored to the object?

ufology,can you be so kind as to provide links (preferably) or other references to the evidence in the Washington DC case? I'd like to look at it and it's so much easier to discuss if we're looking at the same things.
 
John Albert,

I'm pretty sure Paul can answer for himself. But to address your point, it isn't sufficient equivalence to say that just like Campeche the objects were probably some mundane object. You could say that about anything. There needs to be something more specific and in the Campeche case the central theory for the explanation is that what was picked up on the FLIR were distant oil well flares. So where are the oil well flares in the DC incident? Or any flares for that matter and how do FLIR videos correspond to the sharply defined ground based RADAR targets ( a completely different technology ) that allowed the F-94 to be vectored to the object?

John Albert answer was just fine, in my opinion.

We very much need to recap. From http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=7943074#post7943074

The Campeche case involved multiple military, trained observer eye-witnesses and FLIR tracking.
These - not any other aspect (rader vs. FLIR, etc.) - are the similarities that enable us to question your conclusion about D.C. That is why I said

If the same conditions that lead to you a certain conclusion can be shown to have led to an incorrect conclusion in another case, then you must be warned against coming to a similar incorrect conclusion based on those similar conditions.

Just like an analogy, D.C. does not need to be the same as Campeche in every regard in order for the principle directly above to apply.
 
I'm pretty sure Paul can answer for himself. But to address your point, it isn't sufficient equivalence to say that just like Campeche the objects were probably some mundane object. You could say that about anything. There needs to be something more specific and in the Campeche case the central theory for the explanation is that what was picked up on the FLIR were distant oil well flares. So where are the oil well flares in the DC incident? Or any flares for that matter and how do FLIR videos correspond to the sharply defined ground based RADAR targets ( a completely different technology ) that allowed the F-94 to be vectored to the object?


You're still missing the forest for the trees. That's an old saying that means you're focusing so much on the details that you're missing the whole picture.

Paul never said that the 1952 DC hubbub was the result of oil well flares. You're putting those words into his mouth that he never said. He's already told you it's a strawman argument, yet you still persist with it.

The whole point is that the "oil well flares" could be any mundane thing that the pilot saw and was unable to identify. Car headlights have already been proposed, and that may be the case, or it may be something completely different.

The definitive fact is, we don't have enough information to know for sure because it happened 60 dog-gone years ago, accounts are woefully incomplete, some of the involved parties are dead or otherwise unavailable for comment, and much of the terrain, landmarks, and pertinent technological features have changed drastically since then. Besides all that, the official reports (whose accuracy you do so love to emphasize) do not in any way bear out the extraordinary events depicted in the newspaper stories.

You've claimed and insinuated that there's "plenty of evidence" to support the assertion that US Air Force fighter jets were scrambled to intercept a squadron of alien space ships over Washington DC, engaged them in tactical maneuvers including weapons fire, but you've shown no evidence whatsoever to back up that version of events. You've only quoted passages without citation, presumably culled from some pulp UFO rag. No official reports from US government sources back up that version of events. Even the principal players involved in the supposed scenario have denied in interviews that they ever witnessed anything extraordinary, only a few lights in the sky which they were unable to identify the origin of, that inexplicably disappeared. That's it. No ET, no little green men, no ( alien craft ) whatsoever. You keep on repeating that same tall tale with nothing but your own religioid faith to back it up.

I'm going to ask you a question that I've asked before, because you never gave me a straight answer the last time: have you ever traveled in an airplane with a window seat that provided an unobstructed view of the outside?
 
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I'll take that as a no.

As a follow-up question, can you, in your own words, describe what you think "research" involves? I'm not after a copy/paste definition from Wikipedia or any other source, I want to know what YOU think it involves.


Krikkiter,

Take it easy there. I don't always read everyone's posts because I'm not on here 24/7 and pages can go by between visits. In the future if I miss a question please include a link to it in your reminder.

Q. Can you, in your own words, describe what you think "research" involves?

A. Research in my own words, at its most basic level involves seeking out answers to questions. I differentiate it from mere information gathering in that the sum of the information gathered, when taken together in an organized manner, creates a unique work or provides a new solution or insight or a different way of looking at or solving an existing problem. The information can be gathered from existing information, field work or experimentation, each of which has it's own methodology.
 
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