Vaccines: how do I talk to my anti-vac wife about it?

[trusetheeker]

My cat licks her butt. Naturally.
Perhaps Trusetheeker cleans genitals in this "natural" fashion. He/she won't be using any of the "unnatural" loo roll, presumably.

Once again, you've locked into the word "natural" possibly due to the title Natural Hygiene and seem to interpret it as a caveman re-enactment cult. I know that observance of wild animals is mentioned quite a bit in various writings but hardly as often as scientific proof. When scientific research is in synch with observations of other life forms in their wild environment, it serves as confirmation that we're on the right track.

Many Homo Sapiens seem to think that, of all the living organisms on the planet, we're the only ones that the laws of Nature don't apply to. It is abundantly clear that this is not the case.

Natural Hygiene has always worked hand in hand with science but some scientists, especially in the medical field, have either not been able to understand the evidence before them or failed to realise that they were overlooking key evidence. Some Hygienists have also gone adrift as the continuing debate about Vitamin B-12 supplementation shows but fortunately, there are many brilliant and clear-thinking individuals in all fields that are able to find the true path through the dross and keep us on track.

Hygienists are not "science deny-ers" but neither will they accept "science" that violates the fundamental and observable laws of life.

 

[trusetheeker]

4b) Why do you wash? To remove body odour? Animals would never do that, would they? Hence if you wash you do an unnatural thing, and thus vaccines must be safe.

As Morrigan says, animals do wash or possibly more correct, groom.

For humans, as the skin is an organ of elimination, it's useful to wash to keep the pores unobstructed and, of course, removing body wastes and soils from external sources otherwise it can provide a breeding ground for bacteria which would be unhealthy. Not because they are "bad" bacteria but because their byproducts are toxic and will damage the body.

As I explained in separate post, Natural Hygiene is not about living as the cavemen did or any of our other prehistoric ancestors. It is about living according to the laws of Nature as it applies to health. Last time I checked, there was no Natural Law forbidding the use of toilet paper, combs, or high speed trains. However, there does seem to be one against living in zero gravity due to space-induced bone loss. Would it be wise to ignore this law ?

 

[trusetheeker]

Food. What do you think? And when you fast you don't get food, which means you don't get energy. Which means if you fast when you are sick you don't get any energy sources.

Chris, Once again I must apologise for answering questions too late into the evening. What you meant was where does the energy come from while fasting and I missed the unwritten context.

The energy is supplied by the body's reserves in the interstices of tissue. Although uncommon, fasts of 60 days or more have occurred safely. The body signals the end of the fast by reinstating hunger which either means that the repair work is done or that the reserves have run out and it's time to stock up again. If the latter, refeeding must begin or else actual starvation commences where the body starts robbing tissues.

 

[trusetheeker]

So why did so many American Indians, "natural" eaters if there ever were any, die in so great numbers when the Europeans introduced foreign illnesses when they first interacted?

The American Indians were already a declining civilisation by the arrival of the first Europeans but despite the folklore associated with their succumbing to the "white man" diseases, I suspect that it was more in line with the same white man diseases that affected the Fuegians of South America, namely alchohol, inoculation and genocide.

It's very difficult to go back and study the American Indians of 1520 to almost modern times and so much easier to focus on why people are living in health or dying needlessly in the last several decades. Modern day stats do not look good and are not a good testimony to the efficacy of modern conventional medicine.

 

[Safe-Keeper]

Last time I checked, there was no Natural Law forbidding the use of toilet paper, combs, or high speed trains.

Last time I checked, there was no Natural Law, period. Who made and passed this law? The animals of farthing wood in conjunction with Bambi?

"Follow the Natural Law as it relates to your body" sounds like an incredibly convoluted way of saying "do what we think is good for you".

Modern day stats do not look good and are not a good testimony to the efficacy of modern conventional medicine.

Repeating a lie does not make it true. Especially when earlier in the thread you've said things like "Testimonials is all us common folk have".

 

[trusetheeker]

Last time I checked, there was no Natural Law, period. Who made and passed this law? The animals of farthing wood in conjunction with Bambi?

Perhaps you should check again or just wait until you've worn your body out and allowed doctors to "poison" you back to health until you're on death's door, which will no doubt sharpen your focus on what constitutes a law. Are you denying the law of gravity while you're at it? Of course, Natural Law by definition is not the same as the Laws of Nature so let us be clear here that we're talking about the Laws of Nature and not Natural Law.

"Follow the Natural Law as it relates to your body" sounds like an incredibly convoluted way of saying "do what we think is good for you".

Or you could see it as the Laws of Nature that you conform to and achieve and maintain ultimate health or you contravene and suffer deterioration, disease or death.

Repeating a lie does not make it true. Especially when earlier in the thread you've said things like "Testimonials is all us common folk have".

Accusing me of lying doesn't mean that I am but it does show your dishonesty. If you're very particular about the stats you use, you can make conventional medicine look good, but that would be lying to yourself.

 

[Xulld]

A friend of mine had his marriage break up over this and other similar issues. Good luck.

OP if you are in a 1 party state that allows recording a person without consent, then I would start documenting her irrational behavior now so that when you divorce you can get the kids.

 

[Clayton Moore]

OP if you are in a 1 party state that allows recording a person without consent, then I would start documenting her irrational behavior now so that when you divorce you can get the kids.

That is cold.

 

[Chris Haynes]

Chris, Once again I must apologise for answering questions too late into the evening. What you meant was where does the energy come from while fasting and I missed the unwritten context.

....

And I was pointing out how foolish fasting is for those who are ill. You don't seem to have a good grasp of the three laws of thermodynamics.

Apparently Herbert Shelton killed more than one victim patient by starvation.

 

[Chris Haynes]

That is cold.

So is you not actually answering my question that was based on the bit you quoted from Dr. "It is okay to shake children" Buttram. He claimed autism started to rise in the USA when the MMR was introduced. He had the wrong year though, and did not give a proper reference, (edit to add) he also called an "MMF" vaccine! So I want you to provide the missing cites.

What evidence is there that the rates of autism started to rise very fast in the USA starting in 1971? Please list the title, journal and dates of the PubMed indexed papers to support your statements.

(and to be clear: USA = United States of America)

 

[Tomblvd]

The American Indians were already a declining civilisation by the arrival of the first Europeans

How convenient.

Why?

but despite the folklore associated with their succumbing to the "white man" diseases, I suspect that it was more in line with the same white man diseases that affected the Fuegians of South America, namely alchohol, inoculation and genocide.

Yes, they were inoculated with smallpox and other European diseases. The Europeans, recognizing these illnesses, recorded the outbreaks in their records. This is not in dispute.

It's very difficult to go back and study the American Indians of 1520 to almost modern times and so much easier to focus on why people are living in health or dying needlessly in the last several decades. Modern day stats do not look good and are not a good testimony to the efficacy of modern conventional medicine.

What "stats" are you talking about and what "natural" civilization, specifically, are you comparing them to?

 

[Stomatopoda]

I'm bowing out now so for answers to your burning questions, please just [insert favorite internet search engine here] Natural Hygiene and start reading. Good luck.

Back already? How utterly unexpected

 

[Clayton Moore]

So is you not actually answering my question that was based on the bit you quoted from Dr. "It is okay to shake children" Buttram. He claimed autism started to rise in the USA when the MMR was introduced. He had the wrong year though, and did not give a proper reference, (edit to add) he also called an "MMF" vaccine! So I want you to provide the missing cites.

What evidence is there that the rates of autism started to rise very fast in the USA starting in 1971? Please list the title, journal and dates of the PubMed indexed papers to support your statements.

(and to be clear: USA = United States of America)

Yeah sure. I don't know anything about shaking children and I don't think much of people who peddle the inference.

You can tell me why the American and world medical community, with pretty much unlimited data and resources to interrogate that data, can't
figure out what causes toddlers to become Autistic.

 

[Reality Check]

You can tell me why the American and world medical community, with pretty much unlimited data and resources to interrogate that data, can't
figure out what causes toddlers to become Autistic.

First you can tell us why the American and world medical community, with pretty much unlimited data and resources to interrogate that data, can't
figure out what causes Alzheimer's Disease . What about the cure for cancer? Or any of the many other conditions that have no cures or for which the cause is unknown.

Not that your (or my) question has anything to do with the thread.

The quite easy science is that there is no credible link between autism and vaccines.

 

[Stomatopoda]

Godvaccinesdidit.

 

[Safe-Keeper]

You can tell me why the American and world medical community, with pretty much unlimited data and resources to interrogate that data, can't
figure out what causes toddlers to become Autistic.

You've said that already, and it's been pointed out to you that it doesn't matter what we know about what causes autism. We've still ruled out vaccines as a possible candidate.

Perhaps you should check again or just wait until you've worn your body out and allowed doctors to "poison" you back to health until you're on death's door, which will no doubt sharpen your focus on what constitutes a law.

Dodging my question.

Are you denying the law of gravity while you're at it?

No,
Newton's law of gravitation is well-known documented. Care to answer my
question now? Where is this natural law documented, who formed the initial hypothesis, what experiments did he or she do, and when were the results peer-reviewed? Oh, I forgot, testimonials is all "you common folk" have.

Or you could see it as the Laws of Nature that you conform to and achieve and maintain ultimate health or you contravene and suffer deterioration, disease or death.

Again, a convoluted way of saying "do what's good for you".

Accusing me of lying doesn't mean that I am

Didn't claim it did. It's perfectly possible you're just simply wrong.

It's very difficult to go back and study the American Indians of 1520 to almost modern times and so much easier to focus on why people are living in health or dying needlessly in the last several decades. Modern day stats do not look good and are not a good testimony to the efficacy of modern conventional medicine.

Not that difficult. We know, for example, that their life expectancy was 25-35 years. Now how does that measure up against our modern victims of the evil pharmaceutical industry?

Oh, that's right, we live to the ripe old age of 80.

 

[Safe-Keeper]

Skeptoid has a nice podcast on natural hygiene, for anyone interested.

 

[trusetheeker]

Skeptoid has a nice podcast on natural hygiene, for anyone interested.

Yeah, nice if you enjoy someone expounding about something he knows nothing about. It was nice to see him immediately blown out of the water by this comment:

Dear Mr. Randi,

I have always appreciated your work debunking spoon benders and table knockers, but as far as Natural Hygiene is concerned, you're way out of your league. I have been associated with NH for 50 years or more. I have run my own health retreat and seen the results first hand of the natural approach. I have seen rheumatoid patients who were being treated by rheumatologists and getting constantly worse, totally reverse their conditions. I have seen them get off their drugs and become symptom free - and stay that way - within weeks to months. Cancer patients by the scores have become healthy by detoxing, going on lots of raw foods and fresh vegetable juices. The raid on natural therapy is as scandalous as George Bush's raid on the American people. I have brought my files to the Arthritis Foundation - when I was young and naive - and thought I would share with them what I had discovered, what I had accomplished when they had flunked miserably. American Medicine is a scandal beyond belief. When Dr. Mendelssohn was asked casually by a colleague, "What medicine could do for the good of humanity?" His reply: "Go out of business!"
I can only wonder why an intelligent man like yourself has not delved more responsibly for the facts. Are there no honest men (Like Gen. Smedley Darlington Butler) Are we faced with an endless line of mendacity from the likes of the Hannities and O'Reilleys of the world? My God!

Dr. Carl Bosco D.C., Coarsegold California
May 04, 2007 10:45pm

 

[Safe-Keeper]

Dear Mr. Randi,

His name is Dunning.

I have always appreciated your work debunking spoon benders and table knockers, but as far as Natural Hygiene is concerned, you're way out of your league. I have been associated with NH for 50 years or more.

Now there's an objective source.

I have run my own health retreat and seen the results first hand of the natural approach. I have seen rheumatoid patients who were being treated by rheumatologists and getting constantly worse, totally reverse their conditions. I have seen them get off their drugs and become symptom free - and stay that way - within weeks to months. Cancer patients by the scores have become healthy by detoxing, going on lots of raw foods and fresh vegetable juices.

He's been a therapist for 50 years and run his own NH business, and all he has is anecdotes?

The raid on natural therapy is as scandalous as George Bush's raid on the American people.

Appeal to emotion. I think. So random it's hard to be sure.

I have brought my files to the Arthritis Foundation - when I was young and naive - and thought I would share with them what I had discovered, what I had accomplished when they had flunked miserably. American Medicine is a scandal beyond belief. When Dr. Mendelssohn was asked casually by a colleague, "What medicine could do for the good of humanity?" His reply: "Go out of business!"
I can only wonder why an intelligent man like yourself has not delved more responsibly for the facts. Are there no honest men (Like Gen. Smedley Darlington Butler) Are we faced with an endless line of mendacity from the likes of the Hannities and O'Reilleys of the world? My God!

Opinion, opinion, and more opinion. How does this blow Mr. Randi Dunning out of the water, exactly?

Dr. Carl Bosco D.C., Coarsegold California
May 04, 2007 10:45pm

We know this how?

 

[Tomblvd]

Yeah, nice if you enjoy someone espousing about something he knows nothing about. It was nice to see him immediately blown out of the water by this comment:

What, specifically, is in that comment that blows somebody out of the water? All I see there are stories.

Oh, and a few nits to pick:

I have been associated with NH for 50 years or more.

He isn't sure?!

Kinda shoots holes in his anecdotes.

Dr. Carl Bosco D.C., Coarsegold California

One would think after "50 years or so" the good "Dr." would know it is either "Dr. Carl Bosco" or "Carl Bosco D.C.". You don't use both in your title.

Unless you're very insecure.