Merged Apollo "hoax" discussion / Lick observatory laser saga

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to be perfectly honest i actually thought the telecast was only 40 minutes post call

No. You initially thought that the counter read 106:40, which you incorrectly (and without looking into it at all, or noticing the "1" was a colon, and that the counter started at 00:00 at the start of the recording) assumed meant this was mission elapsed time. And you grabbed on to this as "evidence" of a hoax.

This is just another example of your extremely poor research skills, and how careless you are when looking for evidence of the supposed "hoax".

And you still expect anyone to take you seriously, Patrick/Dr. Tea?

"FACTS"? Don't make me laugh.

I was even more confused. I thought the call was 40 minutes post Lovell's bogus call. As it turns out the time, though important, as mentioned to slyjoe above, does not impact my argument. Matter of fact, the journalism issue, though relevant is not necessary Adman. I have enough to indict Kranz simply on the basis of his own statements.
 
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They landed the thing on the MOON. How much more testing would you require to "be aware of the LM capabilities?"

More importantly the LM had been previously subjected to translunar coasts on Apollos 10, 11, and 12. The thermal behavior of the spacecraft had been operationally verified.

And as I mentioned in my previous post, the thermal design was validated by extensive use of finite-element methods during the design phase. This is how it was determined which coatings and materials to use, leading to the mottled appearance of the spacecraft. We use those same computer algorithims today (albeit naturally with much finer meshes) to evalute thermal designs of spacecraft. They are robust and they work.

Further, those same vacuum chambers with the radiant heaters that we use to validate re-entry vehicle designs (and commercial space vehicle designs) were used to test the thermal behavior of the full-scale LM mockups. The LM went through the same "shake and bake" tests as everything else we send into space.

And finally, Apollo 11's descent stage was tested to thermal failure after it was jettisoned, in lunar orbit. The notion that the thermal behavior of the Apollo lunar module was unknown is as ludicrous as saying that we won't know what happens if we hold a hammer above our foot and let go. Patrick's grasping at that straw is about as pathetic as conspiracism gets.

This from the man who demands a difficult and potentially dangerous abort be performed before the cause of an astronaut's stomach upset has been determined. The man who demands a difficult and potentially dangerous abort after a lightning strike in which no damage has been detected.

I have to agree. The sudden departure from Patrick's previous approach to flight direction is suspicious. His previous two "infallible" declarations of proper flight direction say that you should abort the mission immediately if the crew has a tummy ache or if the ship gets hit by lightning (even though the ship checks out). But when the ship is visibly hemorrhaging and the EECOMs can't figure out how to sustain power, then it's completely wrong of them to think about going to the only other working spacecraft (even if it may not work perfectly) -- they should be thinking about whether they can still go to the Moon.

Methinks his approach to flight direction is governed by the philosoph, "Whatever they actually did is the wrong thing to have done."
 
I figured out the perfect way to help you understand. Forget about x and y for a moment. Ask yourself if you think it is "safe" to inhale and ingest infected stool????


I would eat poop in exchange for going to the moon. If I didn't have children, I would actually give my life to do it. Let me make this clear: If the deal was that I got to go to the moon, but immediately upon returning I am shot to death by firing squad, I would take it.

Do you believe the Apollo astronauts thought differently?


Get a copy of Kranz's ... film


You realize, Patrick, you've begged the question:

If Kranz were in on faking a moon landing and the Apollo 13 disaster in order to cover up some military mission, why would he write a book, cooperate on a film, and provide commentary decades later? He got away with it. Saying anything more just complicates the lie. He's just adding layers that all have to be consistent with everything that's come before.

And, according to you, he fails at it. By saying more, he exposes inconsistencies with past accounts. So, why would he do it? Why would anyone?
 
Regardless, he claims he knew and it is not logged and despite Jay's objection, I am sure the rest of us would agree that a flight director would be obligated to write in his log book the time of cryogenic tank explosion...

No, Patrick. We don't agree with you. How much more plainly can this be said?

Begging the question -- rejected.
 
I figured out the perfect way to help you understand. Forget about x and y for a moment. Ask yourself if you think it is "safe" to inhale and ingest infected stool????

No one is arguing that it's safe to ingest stool, infected or otherwise. You're saying they should have aborted the mission because of it. You know, the mission that began by being strapped to millions of pounds of explosives? How safe is that?

The question is not what is safe to do, but what should have been done for an Apollo mission.

Straw man -- rejected.
 
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I don't claim to have the engineering skills requisite to nail Neil Armstrong...

Then why is the majority of this thread your pretense toward expertise on the engineering aspects of Apollo? Why do all your arguments follow the pattern of you dictating what the engineering should have been like?

I never claimed to be an engineering expert slyjoe...

Well let's examine this. First you claimed that no expertise was necessary, that all could be gleaned from "common sense." Then you made the astounding gaffe that no one needed to be a rocket scientist to understand rocket science. So then you attempted a very lame and abortive ploy to say that because you knew a thing or two about bicycles, you were qualified to comment on space engineering because bicycles are more complicated than airplanes or spaceships. Now you're back to saying you're not an expert.

That about sums it up. You claim not to have any expertise when that heat is on, but in chameleon fashion to claim to have it with the other heat is on. Your qualifications change by the minute, depending on what your argument requires.

But I am a physician slyjoe, a medical expert, a diarrhea expert...

No you aren't.

...and Frank Borman's diarrhea is some FAKE DIARRHEA.

Not according to any medical experts you've been able to produce, and certainly not according to Borman's physician of record, whose credentials are not in question.

...and fake diarrhea means all of Apollo is fake.

You wish.
 
...Further, those same vacuum chambers with the radiant heaters that we use to validate re-entry vehicle designs (and commercial space vehicle designs) were used to test the thermal behavior of the full-scale LM mockups. The LM went through the same "shake and bake" tests as everything else we send into space...

Yes, and I've participated in thermal vac testing in Chamber B, where we tested our satellite and where the LM had been tested a quarter-century before. This sort of thing is standard practice, and there are reams and reams of studies and reports on the LM thermal environment and thermal design.
 
There is a difference between one's car really having run out of gas and the car's gas gauge not sensing correctly. John Aaron claims he can tell one from the other, what's what, by way of somebody merely reading him what shows numbers wise on a car dashboard. John Aaron claims he can tell us if the gas tank is really empty simply by being read the numbers.......

Pretty "smart" guy that John Aaron....

17, 16, 15, 14, 13, 12, 11, 10, 9, 8, ZERO BULLOFF we have BULLOFF.....


Patrick: pay attention. I asked you a question. How did I lock the gear down in an airplane I wasn't even flying by just asking the pilot if the navigation lights were on?

Thats the same way John Aaron could diagnose a problem via telephone.
 
The point is Loss Leader that it was NOT SAFE.....

I would eat poop in exchange for going to the moon. If I didn't have children, I would actually give my life to do it. Let me make this clear: If the deal was that I got to go to the moon, but immediately upon returning I am shot to death by firing squad, I would take it.

Do you believe the Apollo astronauts thought differently?





You realize, Patrick, you've begged the question:

If Kranz were in on faking a moon landing and the Apollo 13 disaster in order to cover up some military mission, why would he write a book, cooperate on a film, and provide commentary decades later? He got away with it. Saying anything more just complicates the lie. He's just adding layers that all have to be consistent with everything that's come before.

And, according to you, he fails at it. By saying more, he exposes inconsistencies with past accounts. So, why would he do it? Why would anyone?

The point is Loss Leader that it was NOT SAFE to inhale and ingest poop during the pretended Apollo 8 Mission and thank God it was a pretended mission.

As mentioned many times previously and all more significantly, were any of this real, after Apollo 8, "real" physicians would have insisted on a change in the pooping protocol.


Your point about whether an astronaut would eat poop in order to go to the moon is irrelevant. The point is that a physician responsible for the Apollo astronauts would not allow this pooping arrangement as it is NOT SAFE, regardless of how the astronauts might feel.

One may conclude that all of Apollo is fraudulent based solely on this point.....The point is incontrovertible.....
 
I believe I mentioned in a post above that when Captain Kirk, I mean Gene Kranz, was logging in real time he didn't write in the log book at 15 or 30 minutes even into this ridiculous charade that there was an explosion. NOW THAT!!!!!! would have been incriminating.

Regardless, he claims he knew, and it is not logged, and despite Jay's objection, I am sure the rest of us would agree that a flight director would be obligated to write in his log book the time of cryogenic tank explosion when he became aware of it. An exact replica of Kranz's log book is provided in the beautiful book by Pyle, MISSIONS TO THE MOON,foreward by Kranz himself.


Thanks for the incriminating evidence Gene....


Why did you quote my post? It has nothing to do with this rambling "answer" of yours.


You've been "caught" in a major mistake, Patrick...the longer you continue to deny that mistake, the easier it is for "us" to demonstrate your unwillingness to discuss this topic rationally.


...and you have no one to "blame" but yourself.


Admit your mistake, Patrick...or don't...It matters little either way.
 
I had been viewing videos...

That's a "portion" of your "problem"...listening to people who haven't a clue, and deciding against all evidence, that these clueless people know what they are talking about.

Educate yourself, Patrick...stop "relying" on youtube videos to do your "thinking" for you.
 
No, Patrick. We don't agree with you. How much more plainly can this be said?

Seems Patrick has a nervous "tic" where every third sentence or so, he has to "assume" that everyone agrees with him...


Patrick, do you think we are lying when we say no one here agrees with you? For the life of me, I can't understand why you continue to insinuate that there are people who agree with you when we go out of our way to DISAGREE with you.


Do you understand why we are getting tired of this "implied" agreement where none exists?
 
spectrum.ieee.org/aerospace/space-flight/apollo-13-we-have-a-solution-part-2/0


Over the phone, Aaron asked Aldrich to walk around behind the consoles in the [spacecraft analysis] room and describe what he saw. "I started asking him: tell me what this measurement says, tell me what that measurement says. And that went on for about ten minutes," says Aaron.

In the data Aldrich read to Aaron, Aaron was looking for a pattern that would map to failures in the instrumentation system onboard the Odyssey, but he was coming up empty. "I told Arnie, 'Well, I'll be right there. In the meantime tell those guys they've got a real problem on their hands,' " says Aaron

(My emphasis)

Never dealt with any kind of telephone support where they work out what's wrong just by you telling them what the symptoms are?
 
I mentioned this at least once before......I was/am well aware of the "lifeboat" scenario having been drilled/simmed before. THIS IS EMPHASIZED IN LOVELL'S BOOK FOR GOD'S SAKE. Need I repeat that again...??????

Except you earlier claimed this:

This is BEFORE any formal decision is made to move the astronauts into the LM, BEFORE any technical assessment has been made with respect to the LM's capabilities.

Now one of those two stayements of yours must be false, which one is it?

My objection is that Kranz's bringing up the LM as lifeboat scenario 15 minutes in to the staged Apollo 13 drama is out of context, WAY TOO EARLY. It is inappropriate.

Others have pointed out the double standard her with respect Apollo 8 and 12.

I have no problem with lander as lifeboat. I do have a problem with Kranz claiming he knew the cryo tanks blew based on Lovell's mentioning that something was venting.

And that the pressure on one O2 tank was falling, while the other was at zero, and the reporty of the 'shimmy' but apart from that...

Sy Liebergot did not draw that conclusion though Kranz claimed Liebergot and everyone else did. I therefore have trouble understanding why Kranz is already mentioning using the lander as a lifeboat when Liebergot and others believe there was a reasonable chance still at 15 minutes in that this may have been an instrumentation problem.

But you've just admitted they knew they were venting something so why would anyone proceed on the basis it was an instrumentation problem.

Feel free to criticize my point/debate me as you will regarding the point I am making about Kranz's TIMING. Your pointing out that I was unaware of the "lifeboat" ploy is irrelevant, and more importantly simply does not apply.

No I will criticize the fact you've made two contradict claims about the lifeboat scenario, again please tell me which one was false?

I was and am very well aware of it.

Except when apparently you weren't.

I have read Lovell's phony book back and forth 10 times. I am well aware of Lovell emphasizing this in his fraudulent book.

If only you had understood it once.
 
I'm sure Jay could.

... from the Therac-25,

One of my favorite cautionary [horror] tales of software engineering.

... starting from inappropriate re-use of software in a different engineering environment,...

From the same environment, a good example is what happened when code for the Ariane 4 was reused for the Ariane 5. Oops.

It leaped out as what seemed a good illustration of the de minimus thinking Jay was talking about. Here's a tech with a full list of patients waiting on their treatment, and the machine flashes up something along the line of "1402 ERROR. CONTINUE TREATMENT Y/N?"

Like Jay's example of the smoke alarms, the natural thing to do is to push past the error. It wasn't until the patient screamed that they knew something serious was wrong.
 
There is a difference between one's car really having run out of gas and the car's gas gauge not sensing correctly. John Aaron claims he can tell one from the other, what's what, by way of somebody merely reading him what shows numbers wise on a car dashboard. John Aaron claims he can tell us if the gas tank is really empty simply by being read the numbers.......

Pretty "smart" guy that John Aaron....

Yes, there is. It is called pattern recognition. It is knowing the difference between signal and noise.

You think gauges -- and telemetry -- are simple binary conditions? Are you carrying a mental model here that what they are staring at is the equivalent of the "check engine" light on an automobile?

There's a cute little single-board microcomputer called the Arduino, built around the AVR series micros from ATmel. The boards typically have a couple of status LEDs soldered in to the input and output of the built-in UART -- aka the serial data communication lines.

Anyone who has played with an Arduino for more than a day can recognize just by the pattern of the blinking the difference between a successful program load and a hang. I use mine mostly for MIDI communication, and I can easily tell the difference between note events, CC events, and MIDI device status.

In none of these cases am I looking at the hex dump; I am only looking at the pattern by which an LED blinks.


Or the way, when you are using a VOM, the reading jumps around from poor probe contact and accidental circuit through your own fingers. You learn to see the difference, and how to sort out the real value being read from the spurious lunges.


This is what people do. Or, rather, trained and experience people. They look beyond the "Broken/Not Broken" to read the patterns in how the sensor/data is displaying.


Oh, another good example...a sphygmomanometer. The art of using one is to detect a pattern arising to detectability through the otherwise descending reading.
 
I figured out the perfect way to help you understand. Forget about x and y for a moment. Ask yourself if you think it is "safe" to inhale and ingest infected stool????

We all do. Every day.

The only difference in your described scenario is the amount.

Didn't do sanitation or epidemiology as part of your coursework, did you?
 
I was even more confused. I thought the call was 40 minutes post Lovell's bogus call. As it turns out the time, though important, as mentioned to slyjoe above, does not impact my argument. Matter of fact, the journalism issue, though relevant is not necessary Adman. I have enough to indict Kranz simply on the basis of his own statements.

Whoey, look at them go!

"The journalists knew before Mission Control knew -- obvious fraud."

"Okay, actually they knew 40 minutes later."

"I meant a day later. But it was still too soon."

"When the journalists knew isn't important."

"The stuff about the journalists isn't necessary to prove fraud. They are...oh, look, a bunny!"
 
Your point about whether an astronaut would eat poop in order to go to the moon is irrelevant. The point is that a physician responsible for the Apollo astronauts would not allow this pooping arrangement as it is NOT SAFE, regardless of how the astronauts might feel.


You appear to be using some sort of new and novel definition of the word "safe." This was an experimental series of record-setting space missions - the first and only time humans have ever set foot on a heavenly body.

The idea of "safe" is one of relative risk versus reward.

What is the increased risk of debilitating illness from ingesting feces when sealed in a confined space with two other people as opposed to being on earth? What is that risk when the people have first been tested for infectious diseases and then isolated from known vectors? What is the incubation period for likely infectious diseases? What percentage of exposed individuals actually contract the most likely diseases? Could a man in peak physical shape continue to perform adequately for five days after contracting the most common diseases?

What is the overall chance of mission failure due to illness?

Your argument about what doctors would and would not allow is nonsense and shows, to me, that you have no medical training. Doctors routinely weigh risks versus rewards. Frequently, doctors minimize risks in their minds because they, like everyone else, want to see rewards.

People were going to the moon. Do you really think doctors could have stopped them? Do you think lawyers could have?
 
The point is Loss Leader that it was NOT SAFE to inhale and ingest poop...

No one is claiming it was safe.

As mentioned many times previously...

...solely by you, in complete refraction to anything anyone has said to you.

...were any of this real, after Apollo 8, "real" physicians would have insisted on a change in the pooping protocol.

Exactly what changes? This is where you abandoned this point previously. Don't try to start it all over again and pretend the ball isn't in your court.

Your point about whether an astronaut would eat poop in order to go to the moon is irrelevant.

Nonsense. Tolerable risk is exactly at the heart of this conversation.

The point is that a physician responsible for the Apollo astronauts would not allow this pooping arrangement as it is NOT SAFE...

Begging the question. An army of qualified physicians did approve it. You have provided no expertise to the contrary -- only your vague layman's assertion that it wasn't suitable.

One may conclude that all of Apollo is fraudulent based solely on this point.....The point is incontrovertible.....

So why can't you seem to find a single qualified physician to endorse your claim?
 
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