Merged Apollo "hoax" discussion / Lick observatory laser saga

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Unless someone besides Patrick asks for a detailed analysis of his most recent walls of text, I will not write a point-by-point answer. Patrick does not read them, does not respond to them, so I will not write them unless there is interest from people who do read and appreciate them.

For those engineering students who elect to study forensic engineering as a specialty, occurrences such as Three Mile Island, Apollo 13, and the Challenger accident come to dominate their study of human factors in operator response. That is primarily a psychology study. But these students eat, sleep, and breathe the transcripts of operator activity in connection with these occurrences.

The first psychological factor that applies to operator response to an incident is what we call de minimus thinking. Simply put, de minimus thinking is the urge to explain things by the least tragic or ominous causes. We have faith in our equipment, and we optimistically hope that when the red lights start flashing, it's nothing.

This is especially true in high-end engineering that relies heavily on engineered safety devices (ESDs) that automate much of the control and safety equipment. They are often built with hair triggers, and therefore sometimes go off when they shouldn't. Think of the smoke alarm going off in your house after a particularly hot shower, or simply because of smoke from cooking. You know not to pay attention to it, and your first thought when the smoke alarm goes off starts to be, "Okay, who's cooking bacon?" You don't believe your house is really on fire.

Mission Control doesn't get to see the spaceship. All they see are numbers. It's their job to put those numbers together to paint a picture of what's happening in the machine. This only happens after years of training and experience on that system. Laymen cannot do this for some system. There's no light on the console that says, "Lightning struck your rocket," or "Your oxygen tank exploded." You have to figure that out by deduction.

The first numbers they see on Apollo 13 are indications of electrical failure. Thus the de minimus conclusion they draw is that some electrical problem has occurred. All the subsequent data they receive is interpreted through perceptual filters set up by that conclusion. They're trying to interpret everything as either a potential cause for, or a consequence of, an electrical failure.

In a large system, because of ESD reliability and because of the sheer number of sensors and failsafes they contain, there is an art to determining what sensor readers are trustworthy and which are not. Particularly insidious is the fact that in an undervolt condition, the sensors themselves -- deprived of electricity -- begin to give false readings and cannot be trusted.

This is what the EECOM and most of Mission Control initially believed. They drew the conclusion that some electrical fault had occurred (most probably a fuel cell "trip") and that the multiple failures and warnings they were receiving were the consequences of voltage-deprived sensors and were not indicating real conditions. When you are presented with conflicting input (e.g., tank pressure and quantity readings), and you know some of the input is unreliable, you create a mental model to process that input. And the model in this case is a de minimus routine trip of the fuel cells. You begin to accept unconsciously the sensor readings that confirm that interpretation, and you unconsciously discount or reject those that don't.

Hence the crew's report of the "bang and shimmy" was heard, but then set aside. To the ground controllers, this was just one more report -- no more salient than any of the other real-or-bogus data points they were dealing with. To the crew, a physical response in their spacecraft is a highly salient event. Therefore the reports of the crew and the interpretations of the flight controllers proceed from different mental models. Mission controllers had become accustomed, due to prior mission incidents, to consider abrupt spacecraft movement (pyro detonations, impacts, etc.) as precipitating events for sensor malfunctions and inadvertent valve movements. Hence they're not thinking, "What are these sensors indicating that would have caused a bang?" but rather "What about a bang would have produced this pattern of sensor readings."

Not only do you get a plethora of readings that aren't necessarily valid or relevant, you may miss something important or relevant. O2 tank 2 pressure spiked, then dropped to zero almost immediately. No one noticed; they were looking elsewhere during those two seconds. If that sensor reading had been seen earlier, it might have led to the conclusion that the tank had failed due to overpressure. Instead, all the EECOM team noticed was the subsequent static condition that pressure and quantity readings disagreed -- a condition that might arise in a completely empty tank.

After a few minutes of attempting to diagnose an electrical failure, Liebergot is stumped. What he's seeing is not a component failure, and because he missed a few key readings he doesn't have the proper information to attempt to diagnose a system failure. He's trying to determine which sensor warnings are real and which are likely bad readings from power-deprived sensors. Kranz makes his famous quote: "What do we got on the spacecraft that's good?" Ed Harris delivers the line in the theatrical version with an overtone of disdain. But in reality, Kranz is telling Liebergot to reverse his thinking and to try to diagnose the problem based on what cannot have gone wrong given what he can know to be in working order.

They also continued to believe that the lack of voltage on the buses was not because the fuel cells were starved, but because they had simply been disconnected. This is a much more common occurrence. They still all believed that the cryo tanks were full and available to supply reactants to the fuel cells. In complex systems with limited and indirect instrumentation, correct theories about cause and effect are extremely difficult to produce.

The de minimus thinking begins to collapse 17 minutes into the incident when the venting report is received. Only then are these men persuaded to begin re-evaluating all the previous data. The problem is that they don't remember all of it. Their mental map is composed only of the information they didn't previously reject. Even in the initial stages of diagnosing the venting, they're thinking of it as a consequence of the electrical failure, not a cause for it.

They still don't know that it's oxygen that they're venting. Kranz' description later on in Failure Is Not an Option is naturally a condensation of what all that happened. To note that the venting changed their thinking is not the same as claiming they knew at that same instant it was the oxygen that was venting. Nevertheless, anything that can vent from the service module is something they'll need, so it doesn't need to be known as an oxygen vent in order to be recognized as a survival scenario. In short, you're going to put the LM lifeboat on the table before you know it's oxygen that's venting.

And this is not the only problem they're working. They're dealing with bringing the computer back online. They're dealing with propellant quantities in order to diagnose the RCS failure. They're dealing with communication configurations as the ship bucks about. Time pressure does not make for careful thinking. "I had heard about the fog of battle," writes Kranz, "but I had never experienced it until now. The early minutes were confusing: all reports and data were suspect." (Kranz, Failure Is Not an Option, p. 312)

Even at the 17-minute mark, they still hadn't figured out the causality. Here is what Kranz actually wrote: "A shock rippled through the room as we recognized that an explosion somewhere in the service module had taken out our cryogenics and fuel cells." (Ibid. p. 314) In the next paragraph he describes that "an oxygen tank had exploded," but he doesn't say that he was sure of that cause at the time. This is why it doesn't appear in the log book. He didn't write down "O2 tank 2 exploded" in the log because that conclusion wouldn't be reached until well into the next shift, as Liebergot's EECOM team left their consoles to make a more systematic analysis of the telemetry -- finally noting things such as the tank pressure spike on the strip charts.

This is the difference between primary and secondary sources. Secondary sources such as memoirs have the luxury of constructing a more omniscient narrative. They're full of turns of phrase such as, "little did we know at the time that..." which foreshadow elements to come. Patrick is trying to backfill Kranz' present knowledge of the story from beginning to end into what was unfolding at the time.

Yes, an hour into the crisis the EECOM teams both on and off duty are trying to see if they can restart the fuel cells. They know they're losing oxygen but they still don't know why. They know from the venting report that it's an actual loss, not a broken sensor. And because they don't know why they're venting, they still think they can solve the problem. De minimus thinking prevails at all levels here.

Patrick is trying to tell us that there's no ambiguity in Kranz' account, and that he's claiming -- without the possibility of contradiction -- that Kranz is saying in his book that he knew at the time it was an oxygen tank that had exploded. But no, that's not the only way the paragraph can be read, especially given the "somewhere in the command module" qualification prior to it, and the statement on the next page that Kranz wanted some more time to review all the data, for fear he'd missed something -- those parts Patrick leaves out.

Nor do the primary sources agree with Patrick's interpretation of Kranz' retrospective. Patrick is trying to parlay that disagreement into evidence that Kranz is a "perp." From one sentence shorn of its context, Patrick tries to claim Kranz "slipped up" and knew ahead of time that the oxygen tank had exploded, instead of taking the retrospective narrative for what it is.
 
Take a look at Kranz's log book.......Read Liebergot's book....Listen to the tapes....

Been there, done that, taught it to engineering students.

How does one restore pressure to an exploded oxygen tank pray tell abaddon?

Because they don't know at the time that the tank has exploded, and this is quite clear in the transcripts and tapes.

There is no mention ANYWHERE in those tapes of a tank explosion nor in Kranz's official FLIGHT DIRECTOR LOG.

Because he didn't know at the time that the tank had exploded.

This party is over for your side, Kranz is NAILED......

No, just like you've done with the LM location fiasco, you grab one sentence out of context and insist that only your interpretation of it could possibly be correct. You're trying to use a secondary source as if it were a primary source. You're trying to use a retrospective as if it were a real-time account.

In other words, you don't know the first thing about historical research. Your whole theory of Kranz' alleged misstatement rests one one cherry-picked quote. And trying to deflect attention away from that singularly weak spot, you're pounding your fists on the table about the transcripts and tapes. Yes, it is those transcripts and tapes that are telling you that your interpretation of Kranz' memoir is wrong.
 
Liebergot is probably clean.....I jumped on his case too early. Can't blame me too much given the company he keeps.

This is your idea of an apology to a man you've falsely accused? How arrogant!

Lovell and Kranz are dead to rights perps, and quit defending them Jay based on your impression of their character.

Please link to the post where I base my argument upon their character.

And I repeat my question: Why are you so reluctant to deliver your accusations to them directly? Where is your character? What company do you keep? Ralph Rene, Jarrah White, Bart Sibrel? HighGain? Fattydash? Dastardly?

Kranz claims to have known something only a perp could know.

No. Rather, in one of three places where he describes his epiphany in retrospect, he puts a technical detail in its logical place in the narrative. In the other two he accurately reflects the confusion of the day.

If you want to defend them, deal with the facts as presented, the EECOM tapes.

What do you think everyone here has been doing? The transcripts and tapes contradict your interpretation of the one sentence you lift from the memoir.

If you'd like to give them a call Jay, in all honestly, i am flat our serious, do it.

That's not how this works. I offered to put you in contact with them, not some anonymous web forum nick name. I'm not going to go to Kranz' agent and say, "Hey I'd like Gene to come debate some anonymous blowhard on the internet who's making all sorts of accusations he won't back up." You don't get to continue stroking your ego on JREF by making accusations you can easily run away from.

So when I have your verifiable real name and contact information in my inbox (which I will not publish on the forum) then I will contact their offices and, with my credentials, endorse a meeting between you and them.

You will have to face your accusers as a real person, not as some hodge-podge of randomly invented internet personas. That's the whole point of facing your accuser. They get to face you, not DrTea/Fattydash/HighGain/Patrick1000/Dastardly.
 
Al Worden himself said he could not tell one star from another when flying through space on the dark side of the moon.

How does that affect his ability to perform a P52 alignment?

He said there were simply too many stars so there was no context for sighting.

What context for sighting does a P52 alignment check provide?

What makes you think you could do what an Apollo astronaut said he could not Jack by the hedge?

Because no one else but Al Worden is Al Worden.

We went over this, so I'm assuming you ignored it before. Worden said he had trouble for 20 minutes with naked-eye observation without context. You tried to say that meant he could not perform an IMU alignment. That has been proven not to be the case, so why do you keep bringing up Worden?
 
Wasn't a loud bang.......

I've listened to the EECOM loop that is available on Liebergot's website (I can't yet post links), and I've listened to audio of Kranz telling people not to make the problem worse, which was not long after the crew reported venting, and I've also read the relevant part of Lovell's book where Kranz asks everyone to find what might be venting:



Liebergot evidently did have an idea what might be venting, and he was the one monitoring the dials.

Here's a nice bit from the Apllo 13 Mission Operations report (a document I strongly recommend you read), specifically Liebergot's Appendix dated the 24th of April:



EECOM is also singled out for specific praise:



While you're busy accusing everyone there of being liars, the facts of the mission transcripts, and audio, and video, show that the crew reported a loud bang, O2 and power readings went downhill and a gas was seen venting, and that the mission control personnel acted accordingly to isolate what the consequences were of the issues facing them and how best to address them.

Wasn't a loud bang.......In the PBS special on the subject Lovell referred to the sound as "muffled". Wonder if he is having trouble keeping his facts straight. At any rate, same point to you, show me evidence anywhere in any of the Mission Control tapes that they knew there was an explosion. The controllers never took the bogus bait. As I said before , GOOD FOR THEM!!!!
 
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He is still a suspect.....

This is your idea of an apology to a man you've falsely accused? How arrogant!



Please link to the post where I base my argument upon their character.

And I repeat my question: Why are you so reluctant to deliver your accusations to them directly? Where is your character? What company do you keep? Ralph Rene, Jarrah White, Bart Sibrel? HighGain? Fattydash? Dastardly?



No. Rather, in one of three places where he describes his epiphany in retrospect, he puts a technical detail in its logical place in the narrative. In the other two he accurately reflects the confusion of the day.



What do you think everyone here has been doing? The transcripts and tapes contradict your interpretation of the one sentence you lift from the memoir.



That's not how this works. I offered to put you in contact with them, not some anonymous web forum nick name. I'm not going to go to Kranz' agent and say, "Hey I'd like Gene to come debate some anonymous blowhard on the internet who's making all sorts of accusations he won't back up." You don't get to continue stroking your ego on JREF by making accusations you can easily run away from.

So when I have your verifiable real name and contact information in my inbox (which I will not publish on the forum) then I will contact their offices and, with my credentials, endorse a meeting between you and them.

You will have to face your accusers as a real person, not as some hodge-podge of randomly invented internet personas. That's the whole point of facing your accuser. They get to face you, not DrTea/Fattydash/HighGain/Patrick1000/Dastardly.

He is still a suspect.....They are all suspects..... The honest Johns and Sys should have no trouble extricating themselves. That said, Sy is still a target. Harland coauthored his book and so Sy Liebergot cannot be fully trusted, not yet anyway, as Harland is a proven perp, confirmed perp and this confirmed perp helped to write Sy's book.

I want my $433 dollars back Jay, my charges are more than fair. If Kranz would cut me a check now, I might let him off the hook......
 
The tapes are the best evidence we have......

You have moved from arguing the facts of the mission to what people say about the mission so you're getting farther and farther from the reality of what happened.

The tapes are the best evidence we have......

I argue nothing, the tapes speak for themselves as did Kranz. He lied. show me how the situation can be construed any other way given Kranz's own statement and the FACTS as presented in the tapes.
 
The EECOM tapes are a primary source document Jay.......

Unless someone besides Patrick asks for a detailed analysis of his most recent walls of text, I will not write a point-by-point answer. Patrick does not read them, does not respond to them, so I will not write them unless there is interest from people who do read and appreciate them.

For those engineering students who elect to study forensic engineering as a specialty, occurrences such as Three Mile Island, Apollo 13, and the Challenger accident come to dominate their study of human factors in operator response. That is primarily a psychology study. But these students eat, sleep, and breathe the transcripts of operator activity in connection with these occurrences.

The first psychological factor that applies to operator response to an incident is what we call de minimus thinking. Simply put, de minimus thinking is the urge to explain things by the least tragic or ominous causes. We have faith in our equipment, and we optimistically hope that when the red lights start flashing, it's nothing.

This is especially true in high-end engineering that relies heavily on engineered safety devices (ESDs) that automate much of the control and safety equipment. They are often built with hair triggers, and therefore sometimes go off when they shouldn't. Think of the smoke alarm going off in your house after a particularly hot shower, or simply because of smoke from cooking. You know not to pay attention to it, and your first thought when the smoke alarm goes off starts to be, "Okay, who's cooking bacon?" You don't believe your house is really on fire.

Mission Control doesn't get to see the spaceship. All they see are numbers. It's their job to put those numbers together to paint a picture of what's happening in the machine. This only happens after years of training and experience on that system. Laymen cannot do this for some system. There's no light on the console that says, "Lightning struck your rocket," or "Your oxygen tank exploded." You have to figure that out by deduction.

The first numbers they see on Apollo 13 are indications of electrical failure. Thus the de minimus conclusion they draw is that some electrical problem has occurred. All the subsequent data they receive is interpreted through perceptual filters set up by that conclusion. They're trying to interpret everything as either a potential cause for, or a consequence of, an electrical failure.

In a large system, because of ESD reliability and because of the sheer number of sensors and failsafes they contain, there is an art to determining what sensor readers are trustworthy and which are not. Particularly insidious is the fact that in an undervolt condition, the sensors themselves -- deprived of electricity -- begin to give false readings and cannot be trusted.

This is what the EECOM and most of Mission Control initially believed. They drew the conclusion that some electrical fault had occurred (most probably a fuel cell "trip") and that the multiple failures and warnings they were receiving were the consequences of voltage-deprived sensors and were not indicating real conditions. When you are presented with conflicting input (e.g., tank pressure and quantity readings), and you know some of the input is unreliable, you create a mental model to process that input. And the model in this case is a de minimus routine trip of the fuel cells. You begin to accept unconsciously the sensor readings that confirm that interpretation, and you unconsciously discount or reject those that don't.

Hence the crew's report of the "bang and shimmy" was heard, but then set aside. To the ground controllers, this was just one more report -- no more salient than any of the other real-or-bogus data points they were dealing with. To the crew, a physical response in their spacecraft is a highly salient event. Therefore the reports of the crew and the interpretations of the flight controllers proceed from different mental models. Mission controllers had become accustomed, due to prior mission incidents, to consider abrupt spacecraft movement (pyro detonations, impacts, etc.) as precipitating events for sensor malfunctions and inadvertent valve movements. Hence they're not thinking, "What are these sensors indicating that would have caused a bang?" but rather "What about a bang would have produced this pattern of sensor readings."

Not only do you get a plethora of readings that aren't necessarily valid or relevant, you may miss something important or relevant. O2 tank 2 pressure spiked, then dropped to zero almost immediately. No one noticed; they were looking elsewhere during those two seconds. If that sensor reading had been seen earlier, it might have led to the conclusion that the tank had failed due to overpressure. Instead, all the EECOM team noticed was the subsequent static condition that pressure and quantity readings disagreed -- a condition that might arise in a completely empty tank.

After a few minutes of attempting to diagnose an electrical failure, Liebergot is stumped. What he's seeing is not a component failure, and because he missed a few key readings he doesn't have the proper information to attempt to diagnose a system failure. He's trying to determine which sensor warnings are real and which are likely bad readings from power-deprived sensors. Kranz makes his famous quote: "What do we got on the spacecraft that's good?" Ed Harris delivers the line in the theatrical version with an overtone of disdain. But in reality, Kranz is telling Liebergot to reverse his thinking and to try to diagnose the problem based on what cannot have gone wrong given what he can know to be in working order.

They also continued to believe that the lack of voltage on the buses was not because the fuel cells were starved, but because they had simply been disconnected. This is a much more common occurrence. They still all believed that the cryo tanks were full and available to supply reactants to the fuel cells. In complex systems with limited and indirect instrumentation, correct theories about cause and effect are extremely difficult to produce.

The de minimus thinking begins to collapse 17 minutes into the incident when the venting report is received. Only then are these men persuaded to begin re-evaluating all the previous data. The problem is that they don't remember all of it. Their mental map is composed only of the information they didn't previously reject. Even in the initial stages of diagnosing the venting, they're thinking of it as a consequence of the electrical failure, not a cause for it.

They still don't know that it's oxygen that they're venting. Kranz' description later on in Failure Is Not an Option is naturally a condensation of what all that happened. To note that the venting changed their thinking is not the same as claiming they knew at that same instant it was the oxygen that was venting. Nevertheless, anything that can vent from the service module is something they'll need, so it doesn't need to be known as an oxygen vent in order to be recognized as a survival scenario. In short, you're going to put the LM lifeboat on the table before you know it's oxygen that's venting.

And this is not the only problem they're working. They're dealing with bringing the computer back online. They're dealing with propellant quantities in order to diagnose the RCS failure. They're dealing with communication configurations as the ship bucks about. Time pressure does not make for careful thinking. "I had heard about the fog of battle," writes Kranz, "but I had never experienced it until now. The early minutes were confusing: all reports and data were suspect." (Kranz, Failure Is Not an Option, p. 312)

Even at the 17-minute mark, they still hadn't figured out the causality. Here is what Kranz actually wrote: "A shock rippled through the room as we recognized that an explosion somewhere in the service module had taken out our cryogenics and fuel cells." (Ibid. p. 314) In the next paragraph he describes that "an oxygen tank had exploded," but he doesn't say that he was sure of that cause at the time. This is why it doesn't appear in the log book. He didn't write down "O2 tank 2 exploded" in the log because that conclusion wouldn't be reached until well into the next shift, as Liebergot's EECOM team left their consoles to make a more systematic analysis of the telemetry -- finally noting things such as the tank pressure spike on the strip charts.

This is the difference between primary and secondary sources. Secondary sources such as memoirs have the luxury of constructing a more omniscient narrative. They're full of turns of phrase such as, "little did we know at the time that..." which foreshadow elements to come. Patrick is trying to backfill Kranz' present knowledge of the story from beginning to end into what was unfolding at the time.

Yes, an hour into the crisis the EECOM teams both on and off duty are trying to see if they can restart the fuel cells. They know they're losing oxygen but they still don't know why. They know from the venting report that it's an actual loss, not a broken sensor. And because they don't know why they're venting, they still think they can solve the problem. De minimus thinking prevails at all levels here.

Patrick is trying to tell us that there's no ambiguity in Kranz' account, and that he's claiming -- without the possibility of contradiction -- that Kranz is saying in his book that he knew at the time it was an oxygen tank that had exploded. But no, that's not the only way the paragraph can be read, especially given the "somewhere in the command module" qualification prior to it, and the statement on the next page that Kranz wanted some more time to review all the data, for fear he'd missed something -- those parts Patrick leaves out.

Nor do the primary sources agree with Patrick's interpretation of Kranz' retrospective. Patrick is trying to parlay that disagreement into evidence that Kranz is a "perp." From one sentence shorn of its context, Patrick tries to claim Kranz "slipped up" and knew ahead of time that the oxygen tank had exploded, instead of taking the retrospective narrative for what it is.

The EECOM tapes are a primary source document Jay.......And they include Kranz's comment about using the LM as a lifeboat 15 minutes in to the "situation" when at that time there was no reason to be concerned to the point of bailing out of the CM. There were problems, but Kranz's statement is/was way out of context. Everything I am bringing up here is covered in the tapes.
 
I claim the astronauts are not skillful enough to reliably sight stars from the lunar surface. They cannot do it every time with the requisite skill..

You keep making claims, you keep failing to provide evidence to back them up. All the other posters who have a real familiarity with celestial navigation plus all the amateur astronomers tell you that these claims are wrong, why do you simply ignore their expertise and keep repeating yourself?
 
Patrick...why don't you "man up" and admit you were COMPLETELY WRONG regarding the "LM lifeboat" idea???

Why do you continue to ignore this question??...do you understand that you are mistaken and are afraid of admitting that??

If you don't respond, it's the only explanation that makes sense.

...and finally, what word am I using that is causing my posts to be auto-deleted????...I'm getting real tired of that.
 
I claim the astronauts are not skillful enough to reliably sight stars from the lunar surface. They cannot do it every time with the requisite skill..

I claim you are severely lacking in engineering, astronomy, debating and any other skill pertaining to Apollo. I claim you are not even close to being qualified to give an opinion on this. This latest incomprehensibly bad interpretation of Kranz's Apollo 13 comment from his book, to build your strawman is just woeful comprehension, or wilful dishonesty. Which is it? *

Fattydashing around whilst ignoring responses that have dismantled every single assertion you have made is not the action of an academic.


* yes, I know he won't answer that.
 
Fair enough Erock, how about the Kranz lie issue, am i qualified to NAIL him on that?

I claim you are severely lacking in engineering, astronomy, debating and any other skill pertaining to Apollo. I claim you are not even close to being qualified to give an opinion on this. This latest incomprehensibly bad interpretation of Kranz's Apollo 13 comment from his book, to build your strawman is just woeful comprehension, or wilful dishonesty. Which is it? *

Fattydashing around whilst ignoring responses that have dismantled every single assertion you have made is not the action of an academic.


* yes, I know he won't answer that.

Fair enough Erock, how about the Kranz lie issue, am I qualified to NAIL him on that?
 
Every time they were on NASA's artificial/pretend moon they failed Jay.....

When did they fail to do it?

Every time they were on NASA's artificial/pretend moon they failed Jay....

Kranz is a fraud/plant, proven beyond any doubt now......

Ego, all of Apollo is bogus, every star sightings was a fake.

Just ask Gene Kranz.......
 
I just proved ALL OF APOLLO FRAUDULENT Garrison.....

You keep making claims, you keep failing to provide evidence to back them up. All the other posters who have a real familiarity with celestial navigation plus all the amateur astronomers tell you that these claims are wrong, why do you simply ignore their expertise and keep repeating yourself?

I just proved ALL OF APOLLO FRAUDULENT Garrison.....

Have you not been paying attention?

Kranz claimed to know something only a fraud perpetrator couldd know. I just demonstrated that beyond any reasonable doubt whatsoever. The whole thing is fake Garrison, all of it. January 2012, the face of Apollo has changed....

AND that is a FACT.....
 
RAF, for goodness sake, do you realize with whom you are debating?

Patrick...why don't you "man up" and admit you were COMPLETELY WRONG regarding the "LM lifeboat" idea???

Why do you continue to ignore this question??...do you understand that you are mistaken and are afraid of admitting that??

If you don't respond, it's the only explanation that makes sense.

...and finally, what word am I using that is causing my posts to be auto-deleted????...I'm getting real tired of that.

RAF, for goodness sake, do you realize with whom you are debating?

I read "Apollo 13 Lost Moon", Lovell's book 3 times now since I began this in April of last year. The lifeboat situation is well discussed there. Do I have to repeat this again?

My objection is not that such contingencies were not anticipated. The flight officers allegedly did sims with the lander as a life boat. So my objection has nothing to do with the concept of a lander as a life boat contingency. My objection is Kranz is talking about using the LM as a lifeboat at a time when such talk was irrelevant.

It was his realizing this that got him into more trouble. Get it?

Once he realized he had made his mistake, he then had to claim they knew the tank exploded when he made the comment about the life boat 15 minutes in.

Just made things words for him now didn't it RAF?

Oh what a glorious day.......
 
All Kranz said at the time was that Something Very Bad happened to the service module.

In my edition of Kranz' Failure Is Not an Option, page 313 begins Kranz' play-by-play narrative of the incident at the 10-minute mark. But at the top of page 314 he shifts into a more retrospective style. He notes the gimbal-lock concern, and takes the time to describe what a gimbal is and what would happen if they needed to realign the platform.

That's not his inner monologue at the time. He doesn't need to stop and remind himself why gimbal lock is bad every time it's threatened.

Then he talks about how well the team was working. Again, this was not something he had to be thinking at the time, but something he came to reflect on later as he wrote his memoirs. In a memoir you have the luxury of mixing narrative with analysis. That's why we read them, rather than Mission Control transcripts.

In the next paragraph he writes about the "shock," a citation I previously gave. He says "The controllers felt they were toppling into an abyss." Does that mean Kranz got on the loop and asked, "Okay all flight controllers, please tell me whether or not you feel as if you're toppling into an abyss." No, of course not -- he's mixing analysis and retrospection with narrative.

Then finally, in the "Now I was damn angry" paragraph you get to Patrick's smoking gun. "I should have seen it. Somewhere, somehow, an oxygen tank exploded and it caused a lot of collateral damage." (Ibid. p. 314)

This is a retrospective, not a dry technical timeline. In this context Kranz has the luxury of going back and inserting technical details, the results of later analysis and thought, and background information into where they fit in the narrative. This is how history books are written.

Here is the Wikipedia article for the Boston Massacre.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boston_Massacre

Under the Incident heading, it is described that the sentry Goldfinch had been insulted for failing to pay a bill. The author here inserts -- out of chronological order and with narrative omniscience -- a statement that Goldfinch had settled his account. Any "perps" there? Is the Boston Massacre a fraud because later accounts render some events more logically?

Toward the end, a parenthetical phrase informs us that Preston had given no orders to fire, explaining the ragged response of the sentry. Now this fact would not be determined until far later, at trial, but it is presented here in the narrative where the author has come to describe how the sentries responded to colonial taunts. Does that mean the colonials in the episode are "suspiciously" omniscient just because stories told after the fact are massaged for coherence?
 
The EECOM tapes are a primary source document Jay...

Exactly the point that people have been making for three pages. These primary sources outweigh your twisted interpretation of Failure Is Not an Option.

And they include Kranz's comment about using the LM as a lifeboat 15 minutes in to the "situation" when at that time there was no reason to be concerned to the point of bailing out of the CM.

You are not qualified to make that judgment.
 
I argue nothing, the tapes speak for themselves as did Kranz.

No, you are quite definitely trying to speak for Kranz. That's why you won't face him in person. You don't want him contradicting you. You'd rather try to make everyone believe that the Great Patrick, the Cleverest Apollo Historian Ever, is the one and only infallible interpreter of what a living man meant in one sentence of a 375-page book. No different than you trying to tell us what all the living former Presidents would say.

There is a world outside your fantasy construct. Your Apollo theory is worthless unless it can survive outside your fantasy world.

show me how the situation can be construed any other way given Kranz's own statement and the FACTS as presented in the tapes.

I've done so three times. I will not do it a fourth time. Stop trying to pretend your charges aren't being answered.
 
I just proved ALL OF APOLLO FRAUDULENT Garrison.....

Have you not been paying attention?

Kranz claimed to know something only a fraud perpetrator couldd know. I just demonstrated that beyond any reasonable doubt whatsoever. The whole thing is fake Garrison, all of it. January 2012, the face of Apollo has changed....

AND that is a FACT.....

Patrick1000 all you've proven is that you yet again make specious pronouncements about topics on which you know nothing and ignore expert opinion. Bombast is no substitute for evidence and real understanding of the topics at hand.
 
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