Merged Apollo "hoax" discussion / Lick observatory laser saga

[JayUtah]

And They Thought Apollo 13 Was A Problem? Wait until Kranz, Lovell and Haise read this post.

I've worked with Gene Kranz. I've met and discussed the Apollo 13 mission with Capt. Lovell. I've also conversed about it with Sy Liebergot.

Why do you fail even to acknowledge that I've offered to facilitate contact between you and these men you're calling names, so that you can make your case to them directly? Why are you so adamantly opposed to having the defendants in your courtroom? Because of your intellectual cowardice, all your tirades filled with playground insults and ALL CAPS SHOUTING against these highly competent men come off like little more than bad acting. You're like the caricature of a lawyer in a terrible stage play pounding on the table and yelling, "We want the truth!"

You constantly load the language of your posts, saying that "we now know it's all fake," thus putting on a distinct air of self-assurance. Would it be possible, after all your eight months of misconception, error, evasion, and dishonest, for you to show one iota of integrity and show your willingness to face those whom you so boldly accuse?

So if Gene Kranz figured out that there was an O2 tank explosion 15 minutes into the drama, why didn't he write it down in the Flight Director's Apollo 13 Mission Log Book?

Because that's not what the log book is for.

After eight months of trying to make up new "rules" for other people to follow, just so that you can cower in some web forum and shout insults and accusations at them with impunity, haven't you figure out yet that it doesn't work. Haven't you figured out that because of the way you choose to discuss this, your accusations don't matter?

 

[Patrick1000]

Take a look at Kranz's log book.......Read Liebergot's book....

What have you been writing? An honest answer would violate the MA.


You seem to be labouring under the delusion that
A: All dicussion in the MCC was captured on the tapes, and
B: All caps somehow adds weight to your claims, and does not make you appear as a troll/child.

In Sy Liebergot's own words, there was constantly a cluster of controllers around the EECOM console discussing the problem, including flight, GNC, FIDO etc, all of which discussion was not recorded on the tapes.

Once again, you have cherry picked a quote, but omitted the parts which torpedo your claims.


And you know this is untrue because you were present at the time to overhear all of the offline unrecorded discussion, right?



Within 15 minutes they knew O2 tank 2 was a total loss.


Did that. You are deliberately misrepresenting what actually happened.


Misrepresentation again. You are simply hoping no one will check up on this. You are wrong.


Unfounded conjecture. Invalid assumptions. Mistaken conclusion.


Wrong.


Wrong.



Did that. You are still wrong.


Does your ego knows no bounds? The time for honouring yourself is over. Present some actual evidence that will stand up.


It is nothing of the sort.


No, "one" may not.

Take a look at Kranz's log book.......Read Liebergot's book....Listen to the tapes....

This is getting embarrassing for your side abaddon. If you listen to the tapes you will hear the following scenario play out; Clint Black who takes over for Liebergot and Lunney who takes over for Kranz actually try to restore pressure, long shot that it is, to oxygen tank number 2.

How does one restore pressure to an exploded oxygen tank pray tell abaddon?


Answer, well you might try if you think something other than a tank explosion occurred.

There is no mention ANYWHERE in those tapes of a tank explosion nor in Kranz's official FLIGHT DIRECTOR LOG. I have both, you need to get them as well.

This party is over for your side, Kranz is NAILED......

 

[JayUtah]

I beg anyone with real knowledge to correct me if I have misapprehended anything.

In my expert, professional opinion, Counselor, that is an accurate summary of the intended procedure.

Do you have any thoughts as to why the same information has been received so differently by the two of us?

Well I do, but I doubt they'd survive moderation.

 

[Loss Leader]

You identified your star because you were oriented. That would absolutely not be the case in cislunar space.

But, Patrick, that's the very reason they were aligning the vessel. They took star sightings to keep their sense of orientation. When, mathematically, it became possible for their orientation to have drifted by a small amount, they took the star sighting to correct it.

It's one thing to spin you around in deep space and ask you to recognize something. It's another to ask you to keep your eye fixed on a single point from launch to landing.

Why don't you understand that the star tracking was a method of aiding, refining and cross-checking alignment against the inertial systems? It's been explained forty or fifty times.

Although Loss Leader will give me yet another verbal chastisement for this, I'm sure, I will point out that your desire to try to reason toward some proposition that others can easily establish by direct observation, is highly illogical.

The important aspect is that others already have established the truth through direct observation. That evidence cannot be dismissed based on mere deductive reasoning. It must be accounted for and explained. Here, the best explanation is that P1k's reasoning is wrong.

 

[nomuse]

You knew what star it was because you know up from down....East from west, north from south. You were oriented by your feet being on the ground and knowledge of the earth's horizon. Were you in cislunar space and shown that star without any terrestrial clue, not knowing north/south, east/west , up/down, you could not have identified it. You used your own planet to orient yourself. That is cheating. Sure you could sight the earth's horizon in cislunar space nomuse, but so what?

You identified your star because you were oriented. That would absolutely not be the case in cislunar space. And Apollo astronauts, a guy like Bean or Duke, they wouldn't do as well as you. These guys are busted on this point nomuse, simple as that.

And the spacecraft has the Moon, the Earth, the Sun, and possibly some planets to align from. They can't be "anywhere" in the Solar System, after all; they know where these objects should appear relative to each other. The only thing that might be in question is their own orientation.

And you still missed. I used only ONE orientation clue as to the identity of that star. Can you think of what it might be? The big hint you missed -- it was quite difficult to see any other stars. (And, no, I don't mean I was looking at the Sun!)

 

[Patrick1000]

Kranz is nailed Jay.......

I've worked with Gene Kranz. I've met and discussed the Apollo 13 mission with Capt. Lovell. I've also conversed about it with Sy Liebergot.

Why do you fail even to acknowledge that I've offered to facilitate contact between you and these men you're calling names, so that you can make your case to them directly? Why are you so adamantly opposed to having the defendants in your courtroom? Because of your intellectual cowardice, all your tirades filled with playground insults and ALL CAPS SHOUTING against these highly competent men come off like little more than bad acting. You're like the caricature of a lawyer in a terrible stage play pounding on the table and yelling, "We want the truth!"

You constantly load the language of your posts, saying that "we now know it's all fake," thus putting on a distinct air of self-assurance. Would it be possible, after all your eight months of misconception, error, evasion, and dishonest, for you to show one iota of integrity and show your willingness to face those whom you so boldly accuse?



Because that's not what the log book is for.

After eight months of trying to make up new "rules" for other people to follow, just so that you can cower in some web forum and shout insults and accusations at them with impunity, haven't you figure out yet that it doesn't work. Haven't you figured out that because of the way you choose to discuss this, your accusations don't matter?

Kranz is nailed Jay.......Listen to the EECOM tapes and weep......

 

[Patrick1000]

OK Loss Leader, try this......

But, Patrick, that's the very reason they were aligning the vessel. They took star sightings to keep their sense of orientation. When, mathematically, it became possible for their orientation to have drifted by a small amount, they took the star sighting to correct it.

It's one thing to spin you around in deep space and ask you to recognize something. It's another to ask you to keep your eye fixed on a single point from launch to landing.

Why don't you understand that the star tracking was a method of aiding, refining and cross-checking alignment against the inertial systems? It's been explained forty or fifty times.






The important aspect is that others already have established the truth through direct observation. That evidence cannot be dismissed based on mere deductive reasoning. It must be accounted for and explained. Here, the best explanation is that P1k's reasoning is wrong.

OK Loss Leader, try this......You and Armstrong and Aldrin and I are on the surface of the moon in a somewhat enlarged version of the Eagle. We have the same one power AOT that the Apollo 11 astronauts allegedly used on the moon. We must find some stars to align our IMU. Can we reliably do this? Remember we are in the lander, the computer cannot help us. We do this all on our own. Are we confident? I say not confident enough......Way way way way not so, not confident....

 

[Patrick1000]

Liebergot is probably clean.....

I've worked with Gene Kranz. I've met and discussed the Apollo 13 mission with Capt. Lovell. I've also conversed about it with Sy Liebergot.

Why do you fail even to acknowledge that I've offered to facilitate contact between you and these men you're calling names, so that you can make your case to them directly? Why are you so adamantly opposed to having the defendants in your courtroom? Because of your intellectual cowardice, all your tirades filled with playground insults and ALL CAPS SHOUTING against these highly competent men come off like little more than bad acting. You're like the caricature of a lawyer in a terrible stage play pounding on the table and yelling, "We want the truth!"

You constantly load the language of your posts, saying that "we now know it's all fake," thus putting on a distinct air of self-assurance. Would it be possible, after all your eight months of misconception, error, evasion, and dishonest, for you to show one iota of integrity and show your willingness to face those whom you so boldly accuse?



Because that's not what the log book is for.

After eight months of trying to make up new "rules" for other people to follow, just so that you can cower in some web forum and shout insults and accusations at them with impunity, haven't you figure out yet that it doesn't work. Haven't you figured out that because of the way you choose to discuss this, your accusations don't matter?

Liebergot is probably clean.....I jumped on his case too early. Can't blame me too much given the company he keeps.

Lovell and Kranz are dead to rights perps, and quit defending them Jay based on your impression of their character. You'd be better off dealing with the facts, not who you think they are.

Kranz claims to have known something only a perp could know. He is now officially NAILED NAILED NAILED. Nailed perhaps better than anyone ever has been. His embarrassment shall be nothing less than consummate. Lovell was in the bogus space ship now confirmed as phony. He is a perp too. If you want to defend them, deal with the facts as presented, the EECOM tapes. If you'd like to give them a call Jay, in all honestly, i am flat our serious, do it. I would love top debate them here on Jref. It would be a pleasure. I have finally got them and it is indeed ever so sweet.

 

[Erock]

Take a look at Kranz's log book.......Read Liebergot's book....Listen to the tapes....

This is getting embarrassing for your side abaddon. If you listen to the tapes you will hear the following scenario play out; Clint Black who takes over for Liebergot and Lunney who takes over for Kranz actually try to restore pressure, long shot that it is, to oxygen tank number 2.

How does one restore pressure to an exploded oxygen tank pray tell abaddon?


Answer, well you might try if you think something other than a tank explosion occurred.

There is no mention ANYWHERE in those tapes of a tank explosion nor in Kranz's official FLIGHT DIRECTOR LOG. I have both, you need to get them as well.

This party is over for your side, Kranz is NAILED......

Attempting to get a response from you is like pulling teeth!

You are making a straw man fallacy.

Where does anybody say they knew for certain that it was the oxygen tank that exploded? Your reference is a pile of bovine droppings. Kranz NEVER says anything about knowing this in the first 15 minutes. You have either deliberately and deceptively used the quote from the book incorrectly, or as many suspect, you have comprehension issues that nobody else has.

You even admit this in your post. Get a clue!


p.s. I wonder whether Loss Leader's legal head would wonder about the libel laws on the internet you are breaching with unsubstantiated allegations?

 

[tsig]

Take a look at Kranz's log book.......Read Liebergot's book....Listen to the tapes....

This is getting embarrassing for your side abaddon. If you listen to the tapes you will hear the following scenario play out; Clint Black who takes over for Liebergot and Lunney who takes over for Kranz actually try to restore pressure, long shot that it is, to oxygen tank number 2.

How does one restore pressure to an exploded oxygen tank pray tell abaddon?


Answer, well you might try if you think something other than a tank explosion occurred.

There is no mention ANYWHERE in those tapes of a tank explosion nor in Kranz's official FLIGHT DIRECTOR LOG. I have both, you need to get them as well.

This party is over for your side, Kranz is NAILED......

You have moved from arguing the facts of the mission to what people say about the mission so you're getting farther and farther from the reality of what happened.

 

[Patrick1000]

Listen to all of the EECOM tapes.......

Let's have a quick look at some relevant parts of the mission audio that we don't have to buy a book to get at:



For my money, the emboldened part would have indicated an explosion, and we gave that statement less than a minute after the initial problem report.

Here's the relevant part about the venting:



So, we have decreasing O2 levels and a gas venting. Hmmm....



Notice, not "thinking about maybe using the LM as a lifeboat", but "the LM lifeboat" - almost as if they had worked it out already as a possible scenario,

The Apollo 11 flight rules (retained for subsequent missions) state that:



So, the LM systems were always there as a back up just in case.

The enquiry into the incident concluded that:

Listen to the EECOM tapes, all of them.......Nothing in there about an O2 tank explosion. The enquiry came to the conclusion that there was an O2 tank explosion long after the fraudulent astronauts returned to earth.....

Kranz is nailed, Apollo as "reality" is over.......

 

[abaddon]

Take a look at Kranz's log book.......Read Liebergot's book....Listen to the tapes....

And? How do you account for the fact that they disagree with you?

This is getting embarrassing for your side abaddon.

Side? what side?

If you listen to the tapes you will hear the following scenario play out; Clint Black who takes over for Liebergot and Lunney who takes over for Kranz actually try to restore pressure, long shot that it is, to oxygen tank number 2.

Whyever should they not so attempt?

How does one restore pressure to an exploded oxygen tank pray tell abaddon?

At that point, no one knew the exact status of the tank.
From a controller point of view, they could see the readouts, and assess the astronauts feedback.

I would have tried it.

Answer, well you might try if you think something other than a tank explosion occurred.

You fail to understand that the controllers can only respond to the data at hand.

What is your response to this?

There is no mention ANYWHERE in those tapes of a tank explosion nor in Kranz's official FLIGHT DIRECTOR LOG. I have both, you need to get them as well.

No, You flail under the misapprehension that it is like the movies. It isn't.

This party is over for your side, Kranz is NAILED......

Random insult noted.

 

[Jack by the hedge]

You knew what star it was because you know up from down....East from west, north from south. You were oriented by your feet being on the ground and knowledge of the earth's horizon. Were you in cislunar space and shown that star without any terrestrial clue, not knowing north/south, east/west , up/down, you could not have identified it.

That's a stumper, right enough.

If only there were some sort of gyroscopic device; a sort of "inertial navigation system", if you will. That might make it possible to keep track of the craft's orientation during the period when you couldn't keep your eye on the stars. I bet the Apollo guys are just kicking themselves they didn't think of that. [/sarcasm]

 

[Loss Leader]

OK Loss Leader, try this......You and Armstrong and Aldrin and I are on the surface of the moon in a somewhat enlarged version of the Eagle. We have the same one power AOT that the Apollo 11 astronauts allegedly used on the moon. We must find some stars to align our IMU. Can we reliably do this? Remember we are in the lander, the computer cannot help us. We do this all on our own. Are we confident? I say not confident enough......Way way way way not so, not confident....

This is the Apollo Operations Handbook for the Lunar Module. The Section 4.9.3 is titled "Lunar Surface Alignment." Please read it and explain to me exactly what the handbook calls for that you say cannot be done.

At this point, I have no idea why anyone would need to sight stars in order to get off the moon. Perhaps they were required to. Maybe the question will be answered by somebody who understands celestial navigation better than we do.

 

[Jack by the hedge]

You need to listen to the tapes...
LISTEN TO THE TAPES BEFORE YOU COMMENT ON THIS AGAIN...

You seem to be labouring under the delusion that
A: All dicussion in the MCC was captured on the tapes, and
B: All caps somehow adds weight to your claims, and does not make you appear as a troll/child.

In Sy Liebergot's own words, there was constantly a cluster of controllers around the EECOM console discussing the problem, including flight, GNC, FIDO etc, all of which discussion was not recorded on the tapes.

It seems the tapes are not the whole story Patrick. I don't need to watch the movies you insist I watch, read the books you insist I read or listen to the transcripts you insist I hear in order to work out that you do not have a cogent argument. You helpfully provide enough evidence for that in your own posts.

 

[threadworm]

Listen to the EECOM tapes, all of them.......Nothing in there about an O2 tank explosion. The enquiry came to the conclusion that there was an O2 tank explosion long after the fraudulent astronauts returned to earth.....

Kranz is nailed, Apollo as "reality" is over.......

I've listened to the EECOM loop that is available on Liebergot's website (I can't yet post links), and I've listened to audio of Kranz telling people not to make the problem worse, which was not long after the crew reported venting, and I've also read the relevant part of Lovell's book where Kranz asks everyone to find what might be venting:

"How about you EECOM? You see anything with the instrumentation you've got that could be venting?"
"That's affirmed flight"

Liebergot evidently did have an idea what might be venting, and he was the one monitoring the dials.

Here's a nice bit from the Apllo 13 Mission Operations report (a document I strongly recommend you read), specifically Liebergot's Appendix dated the 24th of April:

55:54:56 Reacquired data -
02 Tank 2 pressure read 19 psi (OSL) and the temperature was +84 ° F (OSH). 02 Tank 1 and surge tank pressures started decreasing.
Crew had reported a 'bang ' and gas venting from the SM. At this
point, circumstantial evidence pointed to loss of 02 Tank 2 and
impending loss of 02 Tank 1

EECOM is also singled out for specific praise:

The EECOM SSR personnel performance during the mission was excellent. The EPS personnel in particular are due special praise for their efforts since the 02 Tank 2 anomaly rapidly became a power managment problem both at the time of the anomaly and for entry planning

While you're busy accusing everyone there of being liars, the facts of the mission transcripts, and audio, and video, show that the crew reported a loud bang, O2 and power readings went downhill and a gas was seen venting, and that the mission control personnel acted accordingly to isolate what the consequences were of the issues facing them and how best to address them.

 

[Patrick1000]

I claim the astronauts are not skillful enough to reliably sight stars from......

This is the Apollo Operations Handbook for the Lunar Module. The Section 4.9.3 is titled "Lunar Surface Alignment." Please read it and explain to me exactly what the handbook calls for that you say cannot be done.

At this point, I have no idea why anyone would need to sight stars in order to get off the moon. Perhaps they were required to. Maybe the question will be answered by somebody who understands celestial navigation better than we do.

I claim the astronauts are not skillful enough to reliably sight stars from the lunar surface. They cannot do it every time with the requisite skill..

 

[Patrick1000]

Liebergot agrees with me, Kranz is the odd duck out....

And? How do you account for the fact that they disagree with you?


Side? what side?


Whyever should they not so attempt?


At that point, no one knew the exact status of the tank.
From a controller point of view, they could see the readouts, and assess the astronauts feedback.

I would have tried it.


You fail to understand that the controllers can only respond to the data at hand.

What is your response to this?



No, You flail under the misapprehension that it is like the movies. It isn't.


Random insult noted.

Liebergot agrees with me, Kranz is the odd duck out....Kranz claims he knew the oxygen tank exploded 15 minutes after the "we have a problem call", Liebergot makes no such claim. As a matter of fact, Liebergot NEVER is aware of an O2 tank explosion until presumably after the astronauts return to earth. At no time during Liebergot's EECOM duties does he make a determination that oxygen tank 2 exploded. You have not read his book, nor have you listened to the tapes.

 

[JayUtah]

Kranz is nailed Jay.......Listen to the EECOM tapes and weep......

Then why are you so terrified to tell him that to his face?

 

[SUSpilot]

Patrick: let me remind you of this post from earlier today. All Kranz said at the time was that Something Very Bad happened to the service module. Again, whether he, at that time, intuited that an O2 tank exploded, or, said so after the fact doesn't matter. All that anyone said or knew is that the service module was no longer a viable tool to support the astronauts or navigate or maneuver the overall stack.