Merged Apollo "hoax" discussion / Lick observatory laser saga

[Patrick1000]

No, we know it is fake because we can be positive Kranz is lying about the incident..

So, that's your argument - We know Apollo 13 was fake because the Flight Director made a statement regarding a matter which he was unqualified. We know he was unqualified because he was only pretending to be the Flight Director. We know he was only pretending to be the Flight Director because Apollo 13 was fake.

In logic, we call this circular reasoning. It's worthless. Do you understand why that is?

No, we know it is fake because we can be positive Kranz is lying about the incident..

Kranz's book FAILURE IS NOT AN OPTION was published in the year 2000. Chapter 18 is entitled THE AGE OF AQUARIUS and it is about Kranz's Apollo 13 experience.

Kranz clearly states in his book(chapter 18) that 15 minutes into the crisis, he had put the pieces together and realized he had wasted those first critical 15 minutes. Kranz claims that 15 minutes in, right when Lovell reported that they were venting something, they all realized an explosion had occurred in the command module somewhere and took out their cryogenics. This means took out their oxygen supply.

Nothing could be further from the truth. Please read the Kranz book and Chapter 18 for yourselves to confirm Kranz's claim as I have outlined it above.

The events that transpired in the mission control room can be followed second by second in a remarkable recording which accompanies the Sy Liebergot book APOLLO EECOM(JOURNEY OF A LIFETIME). The book features a disc which contains the actual Apollo 13 Mission EECOM loop tape. One hears Liebergot, Kranz, the astronauts, the other controllers, the CapCom.

Lunney who takes sign out from Kranz roughly an hour into the crisis, continues to prod the flight officers including the EECOM that takes over for Liebergot to try various approaches/strategies to get the pressure in OXYGEN TANK NUMBER TWO back up. Everyone must listen to these recordings. Your views with respect to Apollo will be changed forever in light of the contradictory nature of Kranz's claims, contradictory when viewed against the background of the actual "events" as documented in the EECOM loop recordings..

Listening to the Apollo 13 EECOM tapes, one learns that one hour and forty minutes into the staged crisis, the Mission Control team still has not completely given up on the oxygen tank that Kranz claims he and everyone else knew had exploded an hour and a half earlier . THAT IS TO SAY THAT AN HOUR AND A HALF AFTER KRANZ SAYS HE AND EVERYONE ELSE KNEW OXYGEN TANK NUMBER TWO HAD EXPLODED AND THAT THEY ALL SHOULD KEEP COOL AND NOT WORRY BECAUSE THEY HAD THE LUNAR LANDER TO HELP THEM FIND A WAY TO KEEP THE ASTRONAUTS SAFE, THE MISSION CONTROL STAFF IN REALITY WAS PER THE EECOM LOOP DOCUMENTED "ACTUAL EVENTS" STILL NOT AWARE AS TO THE NATURE OF THEIR PROBLEM, WHY THEy WERE LOSING OXYGEN, WHY THEY LOST THE OXYGEN AND WHY THE FUEL CELLS HAD FAILED. THEY HAD NO IDEA AT THAT TIME THAT OXYGEN TANK TWO HAD EXPLODED. KRANZ'S STATEMENT AS REFERENCED ABOVE IS AS BIG A BOLD FACED LIE AS THEY COME.

I urge everyone to acquire a copy of the Apollo 13 EECOM loop recordings and listen for yourselves. Kranz is lying and one walks away from listening to these tapes with no doubt whatsoever that lying and Apollo fraudulence is indeed the case.

Read the Kranz chapter on Apollo 13 referenced above, listen to the EECOM loop tapes, think for yourselves. The evidence is stark and incontrovertible. What Kranz says is a flat out falsehood.

It is also very incriminating that the one specific line in Kranz's famous "OK Let's Everybody Keep Cool Speech" dealing with this reference to the lunar lander is often left out of books and other accountings of the Apollo 13 Mission Control Room events. The line is left out of Lovell's book, left out of Liebergot's book and so forth. It is left out because it is insanely inculpating. What is also inculpating is Kranz's weak effort to try and pretend as though his speech was in context 15 minutes into the crisis.

It is also important to keep in mind that even though the flight officers indeed practiced in simulations "lunar lander lifeboat drills", Kranz's gaffe is still very much out of context, and his claim about his and everybody's knowing the oxygen tank exploded 15 minutes into the crisis is still every bit as much a fantastic lie.

Kranz really botched this one, and in this case, there is no hiding from it. This is as incriminating as it gets and there is no two ways about it. Kranz is busted here, nailed, big big big time.

Liebergot is probably a perp as well.
Liebergot is the one who has the "astronauts" stir the cryo tanks "early". He leaves the incriminating part from the Kranz speech out of his book, obviously intentionally I would suggest, leaves it out intentionally so given its inculpating aspect. AND, as damning as anything, known perpetrator David Harland was the Sy Liebergot Apollo book coauthor. Looks like I've not only proven Apollo 13 bogus, but have nailed yet another perp.

They are all welcome to come here on Jref and defend themselves, my friends the perps. This thing is getting to the point where they probably should. Pretty hard to deny this one isn't it Kranz?

 

[Patrick1000]

The walls are closing in and this time there really is no official story recourse....

So, that's your argument - We know Apollo 13 was fake because the Flight Director made a statement regarding a matter which he was unqualified. We know he was unqualified because he was only pretending to be the Flight Director. We know he was only pretending to be the Flight Director because Apollo 13 was fake.

In logic, we call this circular reasoning. It's worthless. Do you understand why that is?

The walls are closing in and this time there really is no official story recourse....

Get a copy of the film made by the History Channel based on Kranz's book FAILURE IS NOT AN OPTION. I have seen the film advertised under that same title. I purchased the film under the title THE RACE TO THE MOON(PART ONE). The film based on the Kranz book according to my dvd cover/label was released in 2004.

Watch the whole film and then go to the menu and watch the film with commentary by the producers and Kranz.

1 hour and 15 minutes into the film with commentary one of the producers makes the statement and very appropriately so that in listening to the FLIGHT DIRECTORS' LOOP TAPES and so forth, one could/would and these producers DID MAKE the obvious determination that the flight officers, KRANZ INCLUDED were themselves trying to solve the problem indirectly, that is by way of reading instruments. As the producer put it, it all appeared/seemed to him like the flight officers were trying to figure out what an automobile was doing by looking at/analyzing only the dashboard, only the car's instruments. Then the producer makes the additional important and obvious point that based on what the flight officers had available, THEY WERE NOT EVEN AWARE THAT THERE WAS AN EXPLOSION.... Then Kranz quickly comes in and claims that was true but only for the first 15 minutes because at roughly minute 14 of the crisis, Lovell says they were venting OXYGEN, and that statement by Lovell tipped everyone off. BUT THAT IS SIMPLY AND OH SO VERY FLAT OUT NOT NOT NOT TRUE!

Lovell never said they were venting oxygen, only "something" first and then I believe Lovell called it a "gaseous substance". Now, REGARDLESS OF THE BOOK ONE READS, THE FILM ONE SEES, IT IS A MATTER OF FACT, A MATTER THAT IS NOT OPEN TO QUESTION, NONE OF THE FLIGHT CONTROLLERS/OFFICERS WERE ABLE TO DETERMINE WHAT WAS VENTING WITH ANY KIND OF CERTAINY UNTIL LONG AFTER THE INITIAL HOURS OF THIS AND PERHAPS NOT AT ALL UNTIL THE STAGED OBSERVATION OF THE BLOWN COMMAND MODULE PANEL NEAR THE VERY END OF THE FLIGHT.

Liebergot COULD NOT AND DID NOT make this determination about the O2 tank being blown, and as such his "perpetrator status" should definitely be viewed as PROVISIONAL. There is a reasonable chance Liebergot is clean. Lunney who takes over for Kranz by no means views OXYGEN TANK TWO as having exploded, and were Kranz to have arrived at that conclusion, he of course would have told Lunney. Lunney may be clean, pretty good chance actually.

So one may conclude Kranz's speech was canned and staged and he let it rip way too early. I caught him and now he will pay the ultimate Apollo fraud insider price as he should. Abject EMBARRASSMENT and perhaps more.

What is so incriminating about the History Channel dvd commentary is when the producers broach the subject, Kranz first LIES AND SAYS ONCE LOVELL SAID THE APOLLO CRAFT WAS VENTING OXYGEN EVERYONE KNEW THE TANK HAD EXPLODED AND THEN KRANZ QUICKLY CHANGES THE SUBJECT. So Kranz incriminates himself twice, first with the bold faced lie and then with the obviously fear driven quick subject change. You have to listen to that yourself to believe it. It is hysterically sad to be frank, and at the same time pure magic for those of us on my side. No question here, Kranz is through. We on this side have more than proof positive now.....

You have got to hear this stuff for yourselves, it is so far over the top inculpating. It is what we on the fraud side have been hoping for all along. Here one finds a major player, Gene Kranz, insisting on something incredibly incriminating, nothing less than a bold faced lie, and there is a TON of support in terms of book and film material demonstrating the bogusness of Kranz's claim.

This finding with respect to Kranz is outright sensational, the Holy Grail.

My sense is some of these things/films/books/interviews/etc are made to cover up gaffes. In this case, the thing I picked up on listening to the NASA archive tape where 15 minutes in Kranz gives his spiel and botches it with the line about the lander WAY WAY WAY too early. As mentioned, were this thing real, at that point in such a scenario , it could easily have turned out to be a simple instrumentation problem, and as a matter of fact, according to the EECOM loop tape, it is a half an hour in before Sy Liebergot says it is not an instrumentation problem. It takes that long to rule out a simple instrumentation problem. Yet Kranz claimed he knew the tank was blown!

So it takes Liebergot that long to tell Kranz even that much, just that it appears to be a real hardware issue. Then a little after that on the EECOM loop tape, a half an hour roughly into the crisis, Liebergot indicates that whatever is venting MAY BE coming from the "cryos" the tanks, but that is by no means a certainty. AND, even Kranz himself says at that point they did not know what the problem was. In other words, and importantly, he is flat out contradicting his other statements, contradicting the statements in which he claimed he knew the oxygen tank blew just 15 minutes into the crisis. AND KRANZ INSISTS THAT HE AND THE OTHERS KNEW IT BLEW 15 MINUTES IN, LISTEN TO THE HISTORY CHANNEL FILM/EXCERPT AS DESCRIBED. KRANZ IS NAILED HERE BIG BIG BIG TIME.

In point of fact, no one knew it was a crisis 15 minutes in, and Kranz realized after the dust settled that he had incriminated himself by implying that he did know this was a full on crisis just 15 minutes in. Much of what is on these EECOM tapes was/is VERY VERY VERY INCULPATING, nothing less than sensationally so. Hence Kranz's book and his film, obviously contrived now that one can read between the lines.

Thanks Gene, thanks to you, Happy New Year to us, finally, finally , finally, nailed ALL OF YOU BUMS!!!! And nailed you good.....

T

 

[Neutiquam Erro]

He also continues to insist that recognizing constellations was in any way required for navigation. I believe he's been told numerous times that it wasn't.

What a Dastardly assertion!

 

[sts60]

On a subject often brought up by Moon CT, can you see stars in space?...

Well, Neil Armstrong says you can (under the right conditions, of course):

071:59:20 Armstrong: Houston, it's been a real change for us. Now we're able to see stars again and recognize constellations for the first time on the trip. It's - the sky is full of stars. Just like the night side of Earth. But all the way here, we've only been able to see stars occasionally and perhaps through the monocular, but not recognize any star patterns.

071:59:52 McCandless (CAPCOM): I guess it's turned into night up there really, hasn't it?

071:59:58 Armstrong: Really has.

At this point, they were in the shadow of the Moon, and they weren't looking at a brightly lit Moon and brightly lit spacecraft around them.

 

[Jack by the hedge]

we know it is fake because...

...one hour and forty minutes into the staged crisis, the Mission Control team still has not completely given up on the oxygen tank that Kranz claims he and everyone else knew had exploded an hour and a half earlier...

<reams of histrionic padding snipped>

When Patrick's latest gotcha is expressed succinctly, as above, it becomes clear that, as usual, he's got nothin'.

However clearly the available evidence pointed to the oxygen tank having failed, the team did not simply give up on the slim chance that some other combination of events had occurred. That seems to me to be an entirely reasonable and intelligent approach to the problem.

So we have a situation where it was reasonable for Kranz to say that they "knew" what had gone wrong, and it was also reasonable for them still to consider the outside possibility that they were mistaken.

Nobody lied.

No smoking gun.

Does even Patrick believe any of his stuff, or is it all invented purely for entertainment?

 

[Garrison]

The walls are closing in and this time there really is no official story recourse....

Get a copy of the film made by the History Channel based on Kranz's book FAILURE IS NOT AN OPTION. I have seen the film advertised under that same title. I purchased the film under the title THE RACE TO THE MOON(PART ONE). The film based on the Kranz book according to my dvd cover/label was released in 2004.

Watch the whole film and then go to the menu and watch the film with commentary by the producers and Kranz.

1 hour and 15 minutes into the film with commentary one of the producers makes the statement and very appropriately so that in listening to the FLIGHT DIRECTORS' LOOP TAPES and so forth, one could/would and these producers DID MAKE the obvious determination that the flight officers, KRANZ INCLUDED were themselves trying to solve the problem indirectly, that is by way of reading instruments. As the producer put it, it all appeared/seemed to him like the flight officers were trying to figure out what an automobile was doing by looking at/analyzing only the dashboard, only the car's instruments. Then the producer makes the additional important and obvious point that based on what the flight officers had available, THEY WERE NOT EVEN AWARE THAT THERE WAS AN EXPLOSION.... Then Kranz quickly comes in and claims that was true but only for the first 15 minutes because at roughly minute 14 of the crisis, Lovell says they were venting OXYGEN, and that statement by Lovell tipped everyone off. BUT THAT IS SIMPLY AND OH SO VERY FLAT OUT NOT NOT NOT TRUE!

Lovell never said they were venting oxygen, only "something" first and then I believe Lovell called it a "gaseous substance". Now, REGARDLESS OF THE BOOK ONE READS, THE FILM ONE SEES, IT IS A MATTER OF FACT, A MATTER THAT IS NOT OPEN TO QUESTION, NONE OF THE FLIGHT CONTROLLERS/OFFICERS WERE ABLE TO DETERMINE WHAT WAS VENTING WITH ANY KIND OF CERTAINY UNTIL LONG AFTER THE INITIAL HOURS OF THIS AND PERHAPS NOT AT ALL UNTIL THE STAGED OBSERVATION OF THE BLOWN COMMAND MODULE PANEL NEAR THE VERY END OF THE FLIGHT.

Liebergot COULD NOT AND DID NOT make this determination about the O2 tank being blown, and as such his "perpetrator status" should definitely be viewed as PROVISIONAL. There is a reasonable chance Liebergot is clean. Lunney who takes over for Kranz by no means views OXYGEN TANK TWO as having exploded, and were Kranz to have arrived at that conclusion, he of course would have told Lunney. Lunney may be clean, pretty good chance actually.

So one may conclude Kranz's speech was canned and staged and he let it rip way too early. I caught him and now he will pay the ultimate Apollo fraud insider price as he should. Abject EMBARRASSMENT and perhaps more.

What is so incriminating about the History Channel dvd commentary is when the producers broach the subject, Kranz first LIES AND SAYS ONCE LOVELL SAID THE APOLLO CRAFT WAS VENTING OXYGEN EVERYONE KNEW THE TANK HAD EXPLODED AND THEN KRANZ QUICKLY CHANGES THE SUBJECT. So Kranz incriminates himself twice, first with the bold faced lie and then with the obviously fear driven quick subject change. You have to listen to that yourself to believe it. It is hysterically sad to be frank, and at the same time pure magic for those of us on my side. No question here, Kranz is through. We on this side have more than proof positive now.....

You have got to hear this stuff for yourselves, it is so far over the top inculpating. It is what we on the fraud side have been hoping for all along. Here one finds a major player, Gene Kranz, insisting on something incredibly incriminating, nothing less than a bold faced lie, and there is a TON of support in terms of book and film material demonstrating the bogusness of Kranz's claim.

This finding with respect to Kranz is outright sensational, the Holy Grail.

My sense is some of these things/films/books/interviews/etc are made to cover up gaffes. In this case, the thing I picked up on listening to the NASA archive tape where 15 minutes in Kranz gives his spiel and botches it with the line about the lander WAY WAY WAY too early. As mentioned, were this thing real, at that point in such a scenario , it could easily have turned out to be a simple instrumentation problem, and as a matter of fact, according to the EECOM loop tape, it is a half an hour in before Sy Liebergot says it is not an instrumentation problem. It takes that long to rule out a simple instrumentation problem. Yet Kranz claimed he knew the tank was blown!

So it takes Liebergot that long to tell Kranz even that much, just that it appears to be a real hardware issue. Then a little after that on the EECOM loop tape, a half an hour roughly into the crisis, Liebergot indicates that whatever is venting MAY BE coming from the "cryos" the tanks, but that is by no means a certainty. AND, even Kranz himself says at that point they did not know what the problem was. In other words, and importantly, he is flat out contradicting his other statements, contradicting the statements in which he claimed he knew the oxygen tank blew just 15 minutes into the crisis. AND KRANZ INSISTS THAT HE AND THE OTHERS KNEW IT BLEW 15 MINUTES IN, LISTEN TO THE HISTORY CHANNEL FILM/EXCERPT AS DESCRIBED. KRANZ IS NAILED HERE BIG BIG BIG TIME.

In point of fact, no one knew it was a crisis 15 minutes in, and Kranz realized after the dust settled that he had incriminated himself by implying that he did know this was a full on crisis just 15 minutes in. Much of what is on these EECOM tapes was/is VERY VERY VERY INCULPATING, nothing less than sensationally so. Hence Kranz's book and his film, obviously contrived now that one can read between the lines.

Thanks Gene, thanks to you, Happy New Year to us, finally, finally , finally, nailed ALL OF YOU BUMS!!!! And nailed you good.....

T

So there's an explosion, oxygen tank pressure drops like a stone and it's not a reasonable conclusion that the gas seen venting is Oxygen? Oh and are you ever going to concede you were wrong about the LM lifeboat scenario not being considered in advance?

 

[Patrick1000]

No, Loss Leader you continue to miss my point and the FACT....

He also continues to insist that recognizing constellations was in any way required for navigation. I believe he's been told numerous times that it wasn't.

No, Loss Leader you continue to miss my point and the FACT about the alleged Apollo system. Star sighting is not necessary to navigate per se, but it is absolutely necessary to align the IMU. That cannot be done from the ground. Now as one cannot navigate without an accurately aligned IMU, it is the case that given IMU alignment is star sighting dependent, navigation must be viewed indirectly, but very much so nevertheless, as star sighting dependent as well......

 

[R.A.F.]

No, we know it is fake...

Patrick...please stop using the collective "we". As if you needed to be reminded...NO ONE HERE AGREES WITH YOU.

Do you understand?, or should I repeat?

 

[threadworm]

Let's have a quick look at some relevant parts of the mission audio that we don't have to buy a book to get at:

055:55:20 CDR
I believe we've had a problem here.

055:55:28 CC
This is Houston. Say again, please.

055:55:35 CDR
Houston, we've had a problem. We've had a MAIN B BUS UNDERVOLT.

055:55:42 CC
Roger. MAIN B UNDERVOLT.

055:55:58 CC
Okay, stand by, 13. We're looking at it.

055:56:10 LMP
Okay. Right now, Houston, the voltage is - is looking good. And we had a pretty large bang associated with the CAUTION AND WARNING there. And as I recall, MAIN B was the one that had had an amp spike on it once before.

For my money, the emboldened part would have indicated an explosion, and we gave that statement less than a minute after the initial problem report.

Here's the relevant part about the venting:

056:08:57 CDR
And, Jack, our O2 quantity number 2 tank is reading zero. Did you get that?

056:09:04 CC
02 QUANTITY number 2 is zero.

056:09:07 CDR
That's AC, okay. Yes, that's good AC and it looks to me, looking out the hatch, that we are venting something. We are venting something out into the - into space.

056:09:22 CC
Roger. We copy your venting.

056:09:29 CDR
It's a gas of some sort.

So, we have decreasing O2 levels and a gas venting. Hmmm....

057:23:54 CMP
Okay, Jack. It looks like 02 tank 1 pressure is just a hair over 200.

057:24:02 CC
We confirm that here and the temperature also confirms it.

057:24:09 CMP
Okay. Does it look like it's still going down?

057:24:12 CC
It's slowly going to zero, and we're starting to think about the LM lifeboat.

Notice, not "thinking about maybe using the LM as a lifeboat", but "the LM lifeboat" - almost as if they had worked it out already as a possible scenario,

The Apollo 11 flight rules (retained for subsequent missions) state that:

B. LM SYSTEMS WILL BE USED AS REQUIRED FOR CSM SYSTEMS BACKUP. IF CSM SYSTEMS REQUIRE LM BACKUP THE DESCENT STAGE WILL BE RETAINED WHERE POSSIBLE.

So, the LM systems were always there as a back up just in case.

The enquiry into the incident concluded that:

(1) Earlier contingency plans and available checklists were adequate to extend life support capability of the LM well beyond its normal intended capability.

 

[R.A.F.]

...are you ever going to concede you were wrong about the LM lifeboat scenario not being considered in advance?

See, Patrick, actual scientific researchers are the very FIRST to admit their own errors...fact is, actual scientific researchers tear apart their own arguments looking for errors long before they present those arguments for scientific scrutiny.

You "do" just the opposite.

 

[Loss Leader]

No, Loss Leader you continue to miss my point and the FACT about the alleged Apollo system. Star sighting is not necessary to navigate per se, but it is absolutely necessary to align the IMU.

And yet none of that required recognizing constellations.

 

[abaddon]

snip pointless wall of text

snip second wall of pointless text

Did you have any actual evidence to offer?

 

[abaddon]

Here is a transcript which provides the pertinent parts. Including the mission control parts.

 

[R.A.F.]

For my money, the emboldened part would have indicated an explosion, and we gave that statement less than a minute after the initial problem report.

That's another example of a Patrick mistake which will go unanswered. That list of mistakes is growing.

 

[Humanzee]

Fine read, thanks.

 

[Robrob]

THEY WERE NOT EVEN AWARE THAT THERE WAS AN EXPLOSION.... Then Kranz quickly comes in and claims that was true but only for the first 15 minutes because at roughly minute 14 of the crisis, Lovell says they were venting OXYGEN, and that statement by Lovell tipped everyone off. BUT THAT IS SIMPLY AND OH SO VERY FLAT OUT NOT NOT NOT TRUE!

Disproved by the below:

055:56:10 LMP
Okay. Right now, Houston, the voltage is - is looking good. And we had a pretty large bang associated with the CAUTION AND WARNING there. And as I recall, MAIN B was the one that had had an amp spike on it once before.

So you will now admit you were wrong?

Lovell never said they were venting oxygen, only "something" first and then I believe Lovell called it a "gaseous substance".

Sharpshooter fallacy. If he had called it "oxygen" you would have claimed that was part of the script, etc... A gas venting is what he saw so why wouldn't he describe it that way? Or does NASA train its astronauts in the visual identification of venting gasses?

 

[Patrick1000]

A star cannot be identified outside of a geometric/pattern context....

And yet none of that required recognizing constellations.

A star cannot be identified outside of a geometric/pattern context....

It is simply a random point of light otherwise.....

 

[Patrick1000]

You need to listen to the tapes.......

When Patrick's latest gotcha is expressed succinctly, as above, it becomes clear that, as usual, he's got nothin'.

However clearly the available evidence pointed to the oxygen tank having failed, the team did not simply give up on the slim chance that some other combination of events had occurred. That seems to me to be an entirely reasonable and intelligent approach to the problem.

So we have a situation where it was reasonable for Kranz to say that they "knew" what had gone wrong, and it was also reasonable for them still to consider the outside possibility that they were mistaken.

Nobody lied.

No smoking gun.

Does even Patrick believe any of his stuff, or is it all invented purely for entertainment?

You need to listen to the tapes.......Only Kranz is saying he knew what happened and long long long after events had played out. You have not heard the tapes. This is obvious from your response. No one knew the thank blew, NO ONE! Listen to the EECOM tapes......

 

[Patrick1000]

In many books there is reference to "life boat scenarios". .....

So there's an explosion, oxygen tank pressure drops like a stone and it's not a reasonable conclusion that the gas seen venting is Oxygen? Oh and are you ever going to concede you were wrong about the LM lifeboat scenario not being considered in advance?

In many books there is reference to "life boat scenarios"........The problem with Kranz's statement is that it is out of context at that point in the chain of events. It is way too early. Kranz has foreknowledge of the fraud's "script".......There is no reason to bring it up.

There is no need for the astronauts to even consider using the LM 15 minutes in. The problem could be a simple instrument problem and have NOTHING TO DO WITH LOISS OF OXYGEN FROM THE CRYO TANKS. The fuel cells have not been determined to have failed and so forth. It is 15 minutes in and Kranz is talking about DISASTER. Listen to the tapes.........

So same point to you. You have not heard the EECOM tapes and your argument is reflective of that. Your own statement is out of context given the tapes.

If you listen to the tapes you will hear that NO ONE KNOWS WHAT HAS HAPPENED FOR MANY HOURS. THERE IS ABSOLUTELY NO REASON FOR ANY OF THE FLIGHT OFFICERS TO THINK THERE WAS AN OXYGEN TANK EXPLOSION, NONE!!!

LISTEN TO THE TAPES!!!

 

[JayUtah]

Star sighting is not necessary to navigate per se, but it is absolutely necessary to align the IMU.

No. You obsess over the P52 alignment check, ignoring all other methods of navigation, including the SCS. The periodic star sightings are alignment checks, for the most part, of the primary system.

Now as one cannot navigate without an accurately aligned IMU...

No. You've been told several times that the IMU is actually turned off during translunar and transearth coasts. The IMU is not as crucial to this sort of flight as it is in the other irrelevant examples you've mentioned.

You've been told this several times and been provided references and examples to it. You seem to have your fingers in your ears. Don't accuse Loss Leader of failing to pay attention. He grasps the whole problem. You do not; you're trying to make it seem more precarious and brittle than it really is.

You've been asked how many INS-guided vehicles you've personally operated. Kindly tell us why you won't answer that question. Is it because you don't want the readers to know that you have absolutely no practical experience in this science?