Vaccines: how do I talk to my anti-vac wife about it?

[Lamuella]

In a nutshell, healthy living. The Natural Hygiene movement has been providing this answer, in ever increasing detail, for the better part of 2 centuries. The science that supports it is all on record but, as with NH, much of it is ignored by the medical community. In some cases, the science is accepted but incorrectly interpreted.

Overtaxing the body with a diet of high-fat / high-cholesterol / high-protein / high-sugar or a combination of these, constant stress, too little sleep, rest and relaxation, insufficient sunshine, fresh air, pure water can all create toxemia and toxicosis. Getting back to basics especially in the diet will eventually allow the body to detoxify and return to health.

so how do you explain the fact that my vegan sister, who is in good enough shape to run marathons, doesn't smoke, and doesn't drink, has multiple sclerosis?

You can't just say "in a nutshell, healthy living" and leave it at that, because people with healthy lifestyles get a wide variety of diseases too.

 

[Capsid]

Everything you say is in nearly perfect opposition to the actual truth.

Vaccines cause diseases?
Milk strips calcium?
Cooking denatures food? (Denaturing means making the food poisonous or distasteful.)

To keep myself sane I simply must believe you're a troll.

And then my signature mocks me...

To be correct, denaturing in science means altering proteins so that they do not have their normal configuration and therefore may not function. Heating (cooking) will denature. Doesn't mean the body can't digest it and utilise the amino acids.

 

[Capsid]

Wild animals live healthy lives I presume. Yet they succumb to viruses and bacteria. Rabies in foxes and bats, seal distemper; a few examples.

 

[Safe-Keeper]

Wild animals live healthy lives I presume.

One of the most common arguments for "natural hygiene" seems to be the belief that animals don't get sick. Which is false, of course, illness is the #1 cause of death in animals.

so how do you explain the fact that my vegan sister, who is in good enough shape to run marathons, doesn't smoke, and doesn't drink, has multiple sclerosis?

You can't just say "in a nutshell, healthy living" and leave it at that, because people with healthy lifestyles get a wide variety of diseases too.

Sorry, but you're being anecdotal here. "Healthy people get diseases too" doesn't mean that one lifestyle can't be more healthy than another.

You must be from the school that believes that each "disease" has one unique "cause" and one unique drug to cure it.

I'm from a school that believes that all "disease" has a single cause "toxemia" although toxemia can be caused by a number of unhealthy practices. The cure is to stop the unhealthy practices, start the healthy practices and allow the body to detoxify itself and return to homeostasis.

Either you didn't mean to write that, or you have poor short-time memory.

You believe that disease has a single cause with a single cure, unlike the people who believe disease has a single cause and a single cure?

 

[Lamuella]

Sorry, but you're being anecdotal here. "Healthy people get diseases too" doesn't mean that one lifestyle can't be more healthy than another.

you're absolutely right, but his claim was that he knew "the cause and cure of cancers, MS, diabetes, atheriosclerosis, AIDS, arthritis, etc"

if that cure is "healthy living" and the cause is the lack of it, then someone living healthily shouldn't get cancer, MS, diabetes, etc. It's absolutely the case that with all of these conditions lifestyle can affect how well you manage the disease, but it's not the cause or the cure.

 

[Travis]

What happened to innocent until proven guilty? If you listened to yourself, you'd realise how dumb your viewpoint is. Iatrogenic disease is the 3rd most fatal disease in the USA but where do you find the stats for each doctor or other health care worker who's managed to top some of their patients. Your pretty forgiving when there's an actual proven link between a dead person and one or more people involved in their untimely death.

I'm not forgiving of anyone that advises people to do something that will not only kill themselves, their loved ones but also help prolong epidemics that might kill me.

No but I would get behind the campaign to make safer seat belts or at least to educate people on the risks involved so that could take precautions to negate the risks. I suppose you think it's best to just keep quiet in case someone stops using their belt? That's in my book as "playing God!"

I'm also for making sure they are used correctly. But they need to be used to be effective at all. Sort of like vaccines.

 

[Safe-Keeper]

What happened to innocent until proven guilty? [on the Jenny McCarthy body count website

But that's what I'm asking you. Has this many children died from lack of vaccination or haven't they? Is she and the rest of the vaccination movement guilty or innocent?

If you listened to yourself, you'd realise how dumb your viewpoint is.

Why, thank you.

Iatrogenic disease is the 3rd most fatal disease in the USA but where do you find the stats for each doctor or other health care worker who's managed to top some of their patients.

Unlike the alternative industry, mainstream medicine is very good at recording and working to minimize accidents and maltreatment. Google is your buddy.

Your pretty forgiving when there's an actual proven link between a dead person and one or more people involved in their untimely death.

That depends entirely on the scenario. Not all patients who enter a hospital (or for that matter an alternative treatment shop) survive their ailments. Sometimes humans die, and there's no way around that. So when patients die, how "forgiving" I am depends entirely on how much good the medical personell did versus how much good they could have done.

No...

Okay. So what's the difference between seatbelts and vaccines? You're saying you still want seat belts even though they kill people, but you're against medical treatment because sometimes patients don't survive. What's the difference?

...but I would get behind the campaign to make safer seat belts or at least to educate people on the risks involved so that could take precautions to negate the risks. I suppose you think it's best to just keep quiet in case someone stops using their belt?

That's a pretty... grave accusation, and one with no basis in my posts that I can see. Please clarify why you believe this.

That's in my book as "playing God!"

Call it whatever you want. Doesn't concern me anyway.

 

[Morrigan]

Sorry, but you're being anecdotal here. "Healthy people get diseases too" doesn't mean that one lifestyle can't be more healthy than another.

That's not what he said, though. He's refuting trusetheeker's claim that living a healthy life is all that's required to avoid diseases. Only one counter-example is required for this claim to fall apart.

 

[trusetheeker]

So you're willing to even throw away the technological advances of the late Pleistocene.

What about clothes? Surely you shouldn't wear clothes. For that matter why are you on the internet? Shouldn't you be out chasing down berries naked at least until you die of old age somewhere around 45 years old?

So the children have come out to play!

Travis,

Do you see breathing oxygen as primitive? How about our physiological requirement to replenish our H₂O? Is it old-fashioned to have to eat at all instead of just ingesting the correct array of nutrition tablets?

Eating the foods that we're adapted to as provided by Nature isn't primitive, it's logical and life-sustaining. Eating anything else leads to reduced health, disease and a shortened lifespan.

Talking about primitive, the most sophisticated computer that man has created doesn't come close to the innate intelligence of the human body. Consider that one fertilised ovum contains all the intelligence required to create a human being with its trillions of individual components all working together in harmony for the survival of the whole. Nothing is needed from the mother other than a healthy environment for it to grow in. Nature is well ahead of us and with our current headlong race to extinction, we'll never get a chance to catch up.

 

[ehcks]

Eating the foods that we're adapted to as provided by Nature isn't primitive, it's logical and life-sustaining. Eating anything else leads to reduced health, disease and a shortened lifespan.

But you're against cooking, which puts us before the invention of fire. You're against preparation of food, which removes the use of salt to dry meat and make it last. You're against processing, which means no bread, no cheese, no alcohol.

We would be gathering fruits and nuts, and eating meat and insects raw at the time and location of their death.

If we compare the lifespan and health of that ancient time to today, there's simply no comparison. At least double the maximum healthy age, and a tiny fraction of childhood death.

 

[trusetheeker]

You must be from the school that believes that each "disease" has one unique "cause" and one unique drug to cure it.

I'm from a school that believes that all "disease" has a single cause "toxemia" although toxemia can be caused by a number of unhealthy practices. The cure is to stop the unhealthy practices, start the healthy practices and allow the body to detoxify itself and return to homeostasis.

Either you didn't mean to write that, or you have poor short-time memory.

You believe that disease has a single cause with a single cure, unlike the people who believe disease has a single cause and a single cure?

You're overlooking the word "each."

Conventional medicine's paradigm is that each disease has its own specific cause and a specific cure none of which includes your diet except possibly as aggravating circumstances. They go through elaborate diagnostics to establish what disease you have so that they can decide the appropriate treatment to prescribe. In practice, you wind up a with a cocktail of medicines for various symptoms and a number of those are to counteract the side effects of the main drugs.

In Natural Hygiene, there's no need to wait for a diagnosis because if you're unwell, you start a complete rest including a water fast and when you've recovered you return to (or transition to) a healthy lifestyle in accordance with the laws of Nature.

(Just in case this seems at odds with my previous answers,) living a healthy lifestyle as such supports ultimate health but unfortunately, each person's ultimate health potential can vary based on how good a start they got in life as well as any indiscretions before adopting a healthy lifestyle. For example, if you shot your liver full of holes with alcohol before cleaning up your act, you will have to survive on whatever liver functionality remains when the body has repaired what it can. That can significantly affect your quality of life.

If you were born without hips, you're unlikely to spontaneously generate them regardless of how long you fast. And eventually, you will pass on to the great internet forum in the sky and the quality of your lifestyle will no doubt influence the quality of your death. It's your choice.

For those confused about healthy lifestyles, please note that vegan doesn't mean raw fruit and veg. Vegan means abstention from eating or using animal products although many vegans follow a raw food diet. Other vegans eat unhealthy grains and legumes, processed oils and cooked foods of various types complete with added salt. High fat, high-protein, high-sodium, high-sugar and all cooked to boot. Just what the doctor ordered.

I'm bowing out now so for answers to your burning questions, please just [insert favorite internet search engine here] Natural Hygiene and start reading. Good luck.

 

[carlitos]

He's not kidding. From the site I googled. (small text in original)

The major healing methods in NH

The methods in Natural Hygiene are very simple, so simple that it may be hard to believe that they will work. But usually they are far superior to any other methods. Very cheap, but very powerful. (Note: in physical trauma there may also be need for manipulation/surgery.)

One method is the same as used for a sick houseplant --- provide the best environment, the best soil, nutrition, water, sunshine - and it will recover. The key is to know what environment and food is optimal for humans, but here we can study primitive peoples more than 10,000 years ago - how they lived and what they ate.

Another method is the same as what an animal in nature would use if it ate something poisonous, or broke a leg -- just lie down, rest and sleep, don't eat, until the damage is healed - a method called "fasting".

Deadly advice for lots of people. Pretty offensive, actually.

 

[trusetheeker]

Just before I go, a quick word about Safe-keeper's post because it is so ridiculous.

Unlike the alternative industry, mainstream medicine is very good at recording and working to minimize accidents and maltreatment. Google is your buddy.

This statement is complete BS.

That depends entirely on the scenario. Not all patients who enter a hospital (or for that matter an alternative treatment shop) survive their ailments. Sometimes humans die, and there's no way around that. So when patients die, how "forgiving" I am depends entirely on how much good the medical personnel did versus how much good they could have done.

Please look up definition of "iatrogenic." Considering conventional medicines' track record, the best they should do in most cases is nothing. They guaranteed to get better results.

Okay. So what's the difference between seatbelts and vaccines? You're saying you still want seat belts even though they kill people, but you're against medical treatment because sometimes patients don't survive. What's the difference?

Once again, you demonstrate your poor reading skills. The comparison was between seatbelts and vaccines, not medical treatment. I'm against vaccinations because the whole concept is wrong; vaccines can only harm the body both immediately and long-term. For the record, I'm also against the use of drugs, chemo, radiation and anything other than emergency -ectomies. I'm all for doctors setting fractures and repairing other trauma wounds.

[/QUOTE] That's a pretty... grave accusation, and one with no basis in my posts that I can see. Please clarify why you believe this.[/QUOTE]

As you asked so nicely, I'm referring to the routine scare-mongering on this thread which says that people like me are guilty of injuring innocent people because we warn against getting vaccinations. If we publicise the seatbelt dangers then people won't wear them and might get killed in an accident and of course it would be our fault. Nothing to do with the industry or the government regulators who should be working on our behalf to ensure our safety or at least the awareness of the risks.

 

[Chris Haynes]

He's not kidding. From the site I googled. (small text in original)



Deadly advice for lots of people. Pretty offensive, actually.

Not only is he a germ denier, but a thermodynamics denier. Where does "Natural Hygiene" expect the energy required for healing to come from?

 

[Travis]

So the children have come out to play!

Travis,

Do you see breathing oxygen as primitive? How about our physiological requirement to replenish our H₂O? Is it old-fashioned to have to eat at all instead of just ingesting the correct array of nutrition tablets?

Completely irrelevant.

Eating the foods that we're adapted to as provided by Nature isn't primitive, it's logical and life-sustaining. Eating anything else leads to reduced health, disease and a shortened lifespan.

Oh this is good. So then I presume you will present evidence that Homo erectus had a longer lifespan on average than Homo sapiens. And that early Halocene Homo sapiens beat out those deranged "cooked food eating savages" of more modern times.

Talking about primitive, the most sophisticated computer that man has created doesn't come close to the innate intelligence of the human body. Consider that one fertilised ovum contains all the intelligence required to create a human being with its trillions of individual components all working together in harmony for the survival of the whole. Nothing is needed from the mother other than a healthy environment for it to grow in. Nature is well ahead of us and with our current headlong race to extinction, we'll never get a chance to catch up.

Aside from proving we don't have the computer power for Star Trek transporters......yet.....what is the point of all this? That nature is complex and therefore all human intervention is bad?

Again I question why you are not out grubbing up berries and insects naked. There is a much evidence that clothes leads to a mythical shortening of lifespans as cooked food and medicine.

 

[Clayton Moore]

So the children have come out to play!

Travis,

Do you see breathing oxygen as primitive? How about our physiological requirement to replenish our H₂O? Is it old-fashioned to have to eat at all instead of just ingesting the correct array of nutrition tablets?

Eating the foods that we're adapted to as provided by Nature isn't primitive, it's logical and life-sustaining. Eating anything else leads to reduced health, disease and a shortened lifespan.

Talking about primitive, the most sophisticated computer that man has created doesn't come close to the innate intelligence of the human body. Consider that one fertilised ovum contains all the intelligence required to create a human being with its trillions of individual components all working together in harmony for the survival of the whole. Nothing is needed from the mother other than a healthy environment for it to grow in. Nature is well ahead of us and with our current headlong race to extinction, we'll never get a chance to catch up.

YUP!

As in delicate balance. How many diseases can an immature body handle in a mere two years?

How many vaccines can an immature body handle in a mere two years?

 

[ehcks]

YUP!

As in delicate balance. How many diseases can an immature body handle in a mere two years?

Somewhere between 0 and unknown, but with a very strong lean toward 0.

How many vaccines can an immature body handle in a mere two years?

Greater than 30.

 

[Morrigan]

trusetheeker, please answer these questions:

1) Why do you not realize that viruses ARE germs?
2) You mentioned "putrid air and water". What do you think causes water to be "putrid", if not bacteria and other microbe?
3) If "unnatural" diet is the only source of disease, how do you explain wild animals and even wild plants getting sick?
4) Do you eat bananas? (Serious question.)

 

[Chris Haynes]

YUP!

As in delicate balance. How many diseases can an immature body handle in a mere two years?

How many vaccines can an immature body handle in a mere two years?

Perhaps you can help by answering my very modest question. In 1971 the USA (United States of America, a country mostly located between Mexico and Canada, which does not include any islands that are "Japan" nor "Britain") introduced a combined vaccine for measles, mumps and rubella, one of the first MMR vaccines (it contained the Jeryl Lynn mumps strain).

Do you have any real data that autism started to substantially rise between 1971 and 1997? Please provide the title, journal and date of the PubMed index papers documenting that rise. Thank you in advance, despite this not being the first, second, third or fourth time I have asked you this.

Why won't you answer my question?

 

[Clayton Moore]

Perhaps you can help by answering my very modest question. In 1971 the USA (United States of America, a country mostly located between Mexico and Canada, which does not include any islands that are "Japan" nor "Britain") introduced a combined vaccine for measles, mumps and rubella, one of the first MMR vaccines (it contained the Jeryl Lynn mumps strain).

Do you have any real data that autism started to substantially rise between 1971 and 1997? Please provide the title, journal and date of the PubMed index papers documenting that rise. Thank you in advance, despite this not being the first, second, third or fourth time I have asked you this.

Why won't you answer my question?

First you can tell me why all the world's scientists and all the world's medical community, with all the patient data, with all the CPU throw weight they have, cannot figure out why toddlers are becoming autistic?