Merged Apollo "hoax" discussion / Lick observatory laser saga

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Those endless product tie-ins! What with Tang and Fisher, Imagine Entertainment will make out like gangbusters. :)

One fact I forgot to mention earlier was that the theory of Apollo 12 getting cruddy ratings, which leads to Apollo 13 being a staged disaster, runs afoul of the actual Nielson ratings, which peg Apollo 15 as the most boring Apollo mission ever, from the television audience perspective. So why didn't NASA fake a new disaster on Apollo 16?

With regards to Fisher, I spoke to one of their people and they are sticking by their story even though the facts are known to be otherwise. I spoke to Aldrin about the circuit-breaker story, and he is adamantly certain that a Flair felt-tip pen was the implement used to depress the stub of the breaker button. Does everyone know what kind of circuit breaker I'm talking about? They're used all over in aerospace, but not so much outside that industry. The Fisher pen was way too big to fit in the hole, whereas the slim end of the Flair fits right in. Nor would Aldrin have shoved anything conductive in there.

Yep - two styles to the breakers: pullable and flush. Typically, the pullable ones are used in my world on high-amperage items like alternators, landing gear motors, etc., or on autopilots and the like, so pilots can make those items " go away" if necessary (if you've ever had an autopilot go stupid on you, you know why there's a pullable breaker on that circuit). The flush ones the same, only that they only stick out when the circuit's open.

Interestingly, some aircraft manufacturers have started opting for having all of the breakers be the pullable kind - Diamond, for example. I don't know about military or transport A/C, but I suspect that they're all this style.
 
Another Loose End, Nothing Major, But Worth Mentioning....

In the book DEKE! written by Donald/Deke Slayton with help from Michael Cassutt, in Chapter 23 entitled "CHANGES", on page 252 of my soft cover 1994 publication, one finds the chief of the astronauts Deke Slayton confirming the point that they never figured out where the Eagle had landed until after the mission. Slayton says this very directly. They did not know, they did not figure out where the Eagle landed, until after the mission, after the astronauts returned.

This of course is a critical point, the denial of any knowledge with regard to the Eagle's whereabouts until after the mission.

Say during the fraudulent Apollo 11 mission they had said the Eagle was at such and such a specific spot, for example the targeted landing site in the middle of the ellipse. Everyone would shout when they saw the TV pictures, the geologists and map guys anyway that had been studying landing site images like crazy, "HEY THAT'S NOT THE TARGETED LANDING SITE IN THE MIDDLE OF THE ELLIPSE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!".

They have to hide the bird for many reasons. One is, they cannot at that point anyway in the fraudulent Apollo Program fake in moonscape a specific spot, create a ground level moon scene depicting a specific "well known spot", a specific large and complex crater or mountain for instance. They could not do that. So they "land" in this featureless, very non discript place and say that they do not know where they are. Has to be that way in this phony scenario.

Slayton of course is a perpetrator as mentioned several times already. A big important perpetrator obviously.
 
Boy, Patrick, I'm surprised that given the few day's forced holiday you had you weren't able to formulate any responses to the many, many questions you've left unanswered in this thread.

Why is that, exactly?

Do you concede that you have no answers to those questions?
 
A Losse End that Lead to An Interesting New Finding....

Yesterday I spent the evening reviewing Rod Pyle's, MISSIONS TO THE MOON: The Complete Story of Man's Greatest Adventure. The book's foreward is by Gene Kranz.

Pyle's book features nothing less than a sensational new find, a sensational new fraudulent map with some very familiar and familiarly bogus, targeted landing site coordinates.

Plyle's book comes complete with this insanely cool fold out exact replica of the Lunar Module Descent Monitoring Chart. The original descent monitoring chart was prepared under the direction of the Department of Defense's Aeronautical Chart and Information Center(USAF for NASA). The map/monitoring chart is marked as a first edition and dated 16 July 1969, the date of the Apollo 11 launch. It is very legibly gridded. There can be no mistake about what the map's/monitoring chart's coordinates are.

The map is what was used to monitor the Eagle "as it descended". It depicts the mission organizers' idealized, planned approach, idealized track and targeted landing site. The map is very large/long and features not unsurprisingly, the targeted landing site ellipse. This monitoring chart/map was used by Mission Control Personal on the night of the landing to help "follow the Eagle". It was the bird's hoped for path.

Now as crazy as this sounds, let's assume for a minute that the Apollo 11 Mission was fraudulent and that the LOST BIRD THEME is valid. If such was the case, then one would expect to find the Press Kit, AKA, bogus fraudulent coordinates at the monitoring chart's targeted landing site ellipse center. This would be a ploy on the part of Department of Defense map preparation personal to throw everyone off track by several minutes of arc or more. In this way, the Eagle would not be found on the night of the landing. Sure would contribute directly or indirectly to H. David Reed's confusion, such a bogusly gridded map would, a fraudulently gridded LAM-2 like bogus map. Sure would confuse a lot of other honest guys in Mission Control, for example those assigned the task of telling Collins where the Eagle was, where Collins should look.

A map gridded with Press Kit values for the targeted landing site coordinates would not confuse honest Mission Control personal in real-time. It would not confuse them in any sense they would be cognizant of. They of course wouldn't think anyone would do such a thing. By confuse I mean it figuratively. A bogus monitoring chart prepared to intentionally confuse by Department of Defense Map Specialists would screw up everyone's numbers and those confused would not be aware how it was they were basing their reasoning on bad numbers and so themselves in turn generating bad numbers, creating bad results of their own. The Mission Control Staff would always be off by at least a mile and a bit more were there to be bogus gridding. The Mission Control boys would always be looking a mile or a bit more in the wrong place, always off because the monitoring chart and the LAM-2 chart and presumably other maps were intentioanlly gridded inaccurately.

This as it turns out is what was done. To purposefully confuse was the intention of those who prepared what turns out to be yet another fraudulent map, this one the descent monitoring chart of which I now have an exact replica thanks to Pyle's great book.

So the Mission Control Personal working the Apollo 11 Mission wind up dealing with intentioanlly mislabeled charts. Anyone looking at these maps from the janitors to the the guidance and flight people would be looking at the wrong numbers. How can you work when the Department of Defense guys passed you a bad map? On the night of the landing the Apollo 11 Mission staff are dealing with maps that are gridded wrong. The rationale for hiding the bird has been gone over enough. I need not reiterate.

The map/monitoring chart, is quite well marked as mentioned. It's fraudulent gridding is just like that of the LAM 2 chart. So at the ellipse center one finds the Press Kit landing site coordinates 00 42' 50" north and 23 42' 28" east.

The Department of Defense personal who fraudulently prepared this monitoring chart were all too well aware that the center of the ellipse was not at the coordinates indicated above, but rather at 00 43' 53 north and 23 38' 51" east. This latter coordinate pair represent the targeted landing ste coordinates as reported in the Mission Report, and they are of course indeed the "correct coordinates", that is the coordinates that should be assigned to the ellipse center. Again to emphasize, these correct numbers were of course known to the Department of Defense personal who prepared this monitoring chart and implicates them directly as perpetrators. Department of Defense Map Preparation personal were directly involved in the Apollo 11 fraud, about this there can be no mistake.

So there appears to have been a concerted effort to bogusly grid the Apollo 11 Mission Maps, both the Flown LAM-2 Map of Collins and this monitoring chart as well. There may be more fraudulent Apollo 11 Mission Maps as well. I shall of course be looking, though I certainly have enough here to confirm fraud. There is not question about that. The maps were bogusly gridded to confuse the honest onlookers/workers who were monitoring the Eagle's descent.

I must say, I was not surprised at all. When I found the map in the book, I expected as much.
 
On a subject often brought up by Moon CT, can you see stars in space?

I have no new information on the subject but I recently watched a video of the world's record parachute jump. Interesting, at 31 miles up in the blackness of space - no stars on the video.
 
Looking over Patrick's latest posts, I think overall I'd be interested in hearing more about breakers.
 
How Many Stars Might One See From Cislunar Space With An Apollo Sextant?

One important loose end I would like to tie up before moving on to the subject of Apollo 13 fraudulence has to do with my claim that the Apollo Guidance Computer's method for cislunar navigation was a most nonviable method of cislunar navigation. One reason being, a reason that I will focus on here with several others to be covered in later posts, is that the star pattern presented to navigating Apollo "astronauts" at any given time would be unpredictable and therefore not negotiable given the rudimentary equipment.

This post will be somewhat of a review on material previously covered, though I will elaborate here extensively on those previous points. I then will introduce some new material which will demonstrate with absolute certainty Apollo fraudulence with respect to navigational concerns. I will do this by way of demonstrating that with the Apollo sextant, Collins would reliably have been expected at times to be confronted with at least tens of thousands of unfamiliar stars in the cislunar sky. As such, he could not have sighted and navigated. He never could have aligned the IMU.

Collins states very clearly on pages 383 and 384 of the paperback version of CARRYING THE FIRE(first published 1974, my paperback publication 1983) that while traversing cislunar space, stars cannot be seen unless special measures are taken. This is because the sun is so bright, one's pupils are constricted and so given the small pupillary aperture, there is simply not enough light getting though for the star to register.

In order to set things up to actually see stars so that they may be sighted for example in the aligning of the IMU, Collins wrote that the astronauts covered the windows of the command module with metal plates. Funny how you don't see them doing this or hear about them doing this, covering up the windows with metal plates, much if at all in the course of reading the transcripts and so forth. Almost seems like an ad hoc cover maneuver on the part of Collins to mention it here, but let's give the guy the benefit of the doubt.

So Collins and his buddies cover the windows with their metal plates and then Collins writes that after a few minutes the familiar patterns of the constellations would become recognizable. This, according to Collins, is assuming one is fortunate enough to have familiar constellations wind up in that part of the sky that he was forced to use in his need to avoid pointing the scope in the bright sun's starlight erasing direction.

So Collins writes in his book that sometimes one is fortunate to see constellations and sometimes one is not. Of course this is all so much gooblydegook. Of course star visibility might be variable, but were this a real mission, one could not be so casual about this matter as Collins pretends to be here. Aligning the IMU is essential for navigation , and aligning the IMU is dependent on the accurate sighting of stars. If one cannot see the constellations and identify navigational stars with consistency, one cannot go to the moon. Collins is telling us here that he and others like him could not count on seeing the constellations with any consistency and so we may conclude that they did not go to the moon.

That said, let's give Collins the benefit of the doubt on that point. Let's say that the stars do appear to the CM navigators with some reasonable predictability. Now what?

Collins says that despite his eyes being initially light adapted due to the roaring sunlight that comes in through the CM's 5 windows, he dark adapts within a few minutes, and then at that time is able to see familiar constellations provided they happen to be located in such a place that he can sight them with his scopes without the sunlight, or other light for that matter, interfering and washing out their signals from afar.

Collins of course is wrong on two counts here. First of all, Collins claims that it is pupillary constriction that is responsible for dark/light adaptation and that within a few minutes one can go from bright sunlight adapted to well enough dark adapted as the pupil gradually relaxes and allows more light to enter larger light hungry apertures. Well, one need not be a first year medical student even to correct astronaut Collins. It is rather common knowledge that pupillary constriction and dilatation are more ore less "instantaneous" occurring within fractions of a second. So if astronaut Collins were to be in a space ship with tightly narrowed pupils, as soon as the windows were shuttered, and the lights were canned, Collins' pupils would dilate, IMMEDIATELY.

Assuming this were all real, assuming one really was in a space ship that had been flooded with bright sunlight but was now shuttered and darkened so that one could sight stars through his/her navigational optics, one would at that point be in a situation where the light sensitive chemicals in his/her retinae would need to be regenerated before constellations, and relatively faint stars could be recognized. This process of dark adaptation by way of photosensitive chemical regeneration takes up to 30, or even 40 minutes. Perhaps Collins would not be fully light adapted and so might become dark adapted in say 15 or 20 minutes, but it takes a while. AND an important point to emphasize with regard to all of this is that aviators like Collins/Armstrong/Aldrin were/are well aware of this fact.

I even purchased the physiology manual that flight surgeons used covering this material in the late 1960s. It was quite good by the way. It is emphasized in many aerospace medical texts that aviators themselves be aware of these principles, how dark/light adaptation occurs and how much time it takes to achieve. Obviously it is important as their lives can depend on how well they see at night. An aviator like Collins knew and knows quite well that it is not the essentially instantaneous pupillary constriction/dilatation that is primarily responsible in a quantitative sense for dark/light adaptation. It is a factor, but far from primary here.

So Collins is wrong there too, but for the sake of argument, let's give him the benefit of the doubt. Let's say Collins is correct. He is in a spaceship flooded with bright sunlight. He is light adapted, but now must sight stars to align an IMU and so he shutters his windows with metal plates and cans what lights he is able to can in the CM and over the course of a few minutes he is fully dark adapted. Now Collins in my hypothetical is ready to sight stars by way of selecting them from a field of stars, or in isolation as he might choose them, or as the Apollo guidance Computer may suggest stars, serve them up to him.

What one would like to know is what Michael Collins might expect to see were he to look down or cross sun in the direction of a "familiar constellation" assuming he was fortunate enough to see one as he tells in his book that one must be fortunate in a sense to have the desired constellation land in a dark patch of cislunar sky. Well, what can one say about such a situation? Off the top of the average amateur astronomer's head, a rule of thumb is that one can go from seeing several thousand stars with the naked eye to seeing 100,000 stars by way of employing simple "bird watching" binoculars. Right there it looks like Collins and his Apollo Guidance Computer will be in big trouble, but I would like to be a bit more rigorous here, having spent a fair amount of time researching the subject.

Let's say one goes from garden variety bird watchers to a halfway decent pair of 7 X 35 mm binoculars, according to this chart, which of course one won't take as Gospel, but just to give one an idea;

http://www.cloudynights.com/item.php?item_id=91

WOW!!!! Pretty intimidating, 450,000 stars. Now that is not to say that one would see that with the Apollo sextant which is monocular and 28 X 40 mm(the aperture being 1.6 inches). The binoculars ostensibly are 7 X 70 mm(total aperture) because the light hitting one's brain, at least on the surface of a it all would seem to be the light collected by both of the collecting surfaces. As it turns out however, such is not the case.

Take a look at this;

http://www.cloudynights.com/ubbthre...8586/page/7/view/collapsed/sb/9/o/all/fpart/1

It turns out that doubling the surface area by viewing though 40 mm binoculars as opposed to a 40 mm monocular/telescope, does not result in a true doubling of "signal strength" as one of the above posters put it. If it did, visibility would go up by 0.75 magnitude wise, instead the posters here at this web site suggest signal strength goes up perhaps 0.4 in magnitude or thereabouts. Again, one wants ball park figures here. As you will see, I'll make my point with very conservative claims.

One point worth keeping in mind here is that the discussion going on in the above reference has to do with terrestrial star sighting where atmosphere and magnification's effect on improved visibility play a significant role. One may simply keep this in mind, it will not affect the point that I am making.

Obviously, what I would like to do is make some determination, minimal estimate, as to how many stars Collins might be expected to have access to, be able to see in a patch of sky not affected by the light of the sun, moon or earth to any great degree. The back side of the moon, or viewing the sky when the moon was alleged to have been eclipsing the sun would have been special cases when there really was no competing light. But even according to Collins himself as above, per his book, if one was fortunate, one would be able to scan and sight in an area where there was little or no competition from strong sources of light.

Here's a Wiki article that features conservative estimates of star visibility;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apparent_magnitude

From the above discussion and then again consulting this little chart at the end of the previously and again referenced article;

http://www.cloudynights.com/item.php?item_id=91

One can surmise that at the very least our fairly small aperture equipped 40 mm 28 power sextant would give us access to/visibility of stars of magnitude 8 if not 9. So conservatively, one can say that Collins would see at least 10 times as many stars with his 40 mm monocular as he would with the naked eye. 40,000 stars instead of 4,000. And certainly this squares well with the geometry. As I pointed out above in a previous post, a 40 mm scope has roughly 10 times the light collecting surface area as 2 fully dilated pupils.

It should be emphasized here that the above estimate is exceedingly conservative and even with that, Collins would be looking at the very least, at 10 times more stars with his 28 power 40 mm "sextant optic" than he typically would sighting the same patch of sky with his naked eye, assuming no significant interference from the sun, earth, moon in terms of their light washing out that of the stars and of course assuming good dark adaptation. Both are fair assumptions at least some of the time during an alleged trans-cislular space journey.

So the Apollo Guidance Computer and Michael Collins are certainly ill prepared to deal with such a high star count, and to emphasize again, there would be times where there would be a paucity of stars as well.

The star issue is a veritable mine field for Apollo astronauts. There is the problem just discussed rather thoroughly, the unpredictability of star counts and the immensity of the counts that a navigator might have to countenance. Additionally, if a fraudulent astronaut were to identify what stars he/she could see and where exactly the star was in relation to them and say the horizon of the moon at specific lunar coordinates, then one's position would be known with certainty. If stars are sighted precisely relative to an earth horizon , one's position may be known with great accuracy. Apollo astronauts do not like this because they are not on the moon, not in cislunar space and so indeed, starlight is kryptonite for these boys. The issue with stars and lasers has been gone into already in a great deal of detail. So it is for one reason after another that Collins and his cohort avoid this subject like the toxic electromagnetism that it is for them.

One last thing you may want to play around with is this Telescope Limiting Magnitude Calculator that I found;

http://www.cruxis.com/scope/limitingmagnitude.htm

Punch in some appropriate numbers here and you'll be surprised at how much trouble Collins has gotten himself into with those lies of his.

For the sake of my argument, I'll keep it conservative and claim Collins must deal with a minimum of 10 times as many stars under some circumstances, those circumstances "favorable" for star viewing, as he would here with terrestrial sighting. As Collins is far from qualified to pull this off, and as the Apollo Guidance Computer is not able to help him to any appreciable degree, Apollo must be viewed as fraudulent. If one cannot be certain about the identity of stars, one cannot navigate through cislunar space.

Feel free to comment on these important loose ends at any time. I'll try and respond as best I can given the new points I have made and presumably what will be challenging counters from your side. I thought it best to cover these loose ends in some detail having learned so much since the subjects were last touched on.

That said, I will move on to my favorite new subject now, Apollo 13......
 
...That said, the objection with respect to the visors being up and in particular the meteor guard bering up, stands. I will have to scrutinize these images to see if a definitive determination can be made. Is Armstrong's meteor visor up? If it is, Apollo 11 is proven fraudulent right there.......
In 25+ years in the oil industry I have never witnessed a rig worker perfoming their duties without wearing eye PPE at all times...:rolleyes:

Proof positive that no worker would ever go about their business without wearing eye protection at all times.

That is why NASA designed helmets with fixed visors - so their astronauts would never be able to work without 200% proper eye protection.
 
Running through the 16mm "video"(1 frame per second) of the contingency sample collection on my copy of the Patrick Moore hosted film referenced above, one can see the antenna on Armstrong's PLSS pretty well most of the time and that shadow I pointed out in the previous post of mine is indeed the antenna, so there is no objection there, no objection with regard to the antenna. It is definitely there.

That said, the objection with respect to the visors being up and in particular the meteor guard bering up, stands. I will have to scrutinize these images to see if a definitive determination can be made. Is Armstrong's meteor visor up? If it is, Apollo 11 is proven fraudulent right there.......

Yes, the antenna is clearly visible, yet you threw out one of your uninformed posts before even bothering to check? Why is that?

You don't think that maybe you should do the same regarding the likliehood of being struck by a micrometeorite, then the chance of it being on the visor, and then then chance of it occuring on the infrequent moments in shade where Armstrong raised it?

So, more diversion away from the Moon rocks ensues, and dozens of posts and questions unanswered. Apollo is not fraudulent, I'd stick to bike riding and swimming if I were you, because you are just embarrassing yourself.
 
Slayton says this very directly. They did not know, they did not figure out where the Eagle landed, until after the mission, after the astronauts returned.

Asked and answered repeatedly over the past eight months.

This of course is a critical point, the denial of any knowledge with regard to the Eagle's whereabouts until after the mission.

No, it's yet another account that supports the mainstream view. You instead give ultimate authority to the only outlying account, told years after the fact, and try to say that all the other accounts must be some scripted fraud. Tail wagging the dog.

They have to hide the bird for many reasons.

None for which you've provided any evidence beyond your fertile imagination.

One is, they cannot at that point anyway in the fraudulent Apollo Program fake in moonscape a specific spot...

Supposition. Storytelling is not history.

They could not do that.

Why not? You accept the Surveyor missions as real, because you used them as examples of what you believed NASA's guidance capabilities really were. Therefore explain why Surveyor photography cannot be used to create a convincing lunar landscape.

So they "land" in this featureless, very non discript place and say that they do not know where they are.

There are many places on Earth, especially where I live, that qualify as nondescript. You don't get to say the landing site is automatically suspicious just because it doesn't have recognizable features.

Further, your various tortured interpretations of what people mean at various times when they say they "don't know where the LM is" don't affect reality. It has been explained to you at length by dozens of knowledgeable people what is meant in each case by those statements, but you refuse to acknowledge that any other interpretation but yours exists.

Has to be that way in this phony scenario.

No, Patrick. Reality need not conform to your uninformed and ever-changing beliefs. Begging the question -- rejected.

Slayton of course is a perpetrator as mentioned several times already.

Only in your fantasy world. Your list of "perps" has been addressed. You've been directed several times to where it was addressed. You've acknowledged having been directed to it. Therefore we can only assume that you have no further answers, and the refutations stand unopposed. Kindly do not repeat refuted arguments as if they still had value.
 
I don't know about military or transport A/C, but I suspect that they're all this style.

Pretty much. I helped decommission a C-123 some years back for museum display, and the breakers we yanked were exclusively pull-type.

All the breakers in the LM were pull-type. The reason was because the limited console real estate precluded having both circuit breakers and ordinary toggle switches to switch equipment on and off. Hence Grumman designed the vehicle such that the circuit breakers doubled as subsystem power switches. To turn something off, you pulled its breaker.

The reason Mission Control didn't want the breaker prematurely closed is that they were working on alternate circuit paths in the simulators. The switched-in spares philosophy meant that sneak circuits could develop (and, in this case, perhaps fire the APS prematurely) if random switches were thrown at the wrong times. The ground didn't want them closing the breaker, possibly unable to open it, and then not being able to set up a switch pattern that would allow the computer to fire the engine normally.
 
Running through the 16mm "video"(1 frame per second) of the contingency sample collection on my copy of the Patrick Moore hosted film referenced above, one can see the antenna on Armstrong's PLSS pretty well most of the time...

They were blade antennas. You've been to my site. Explain why you didn't account for this http://www.clavius.org/aldrinant.html in your analysis. Inattention to homework?

That said, the objection with respect to the visors being up and in particular the meteor guard bering up, stands.

What "stands?" You suppose that Armstrong's inner visor has also been raised, and from that supposition you leap headlong to a determination that Apollo is fake. How does pure supposition qualify as any sort of argument that needs a response?

What you call the "meteor guard" isn't a meteor guard. It's a scratch absorber. Lexan, while being very, very tough against impacts, is highly susceptible to scratching. The inner visor is provided so that when the outer tinted visor is raised, the astronaut still has some sacrificial visor. It's provided on the LEVA so that it can be discarded after the EVA, leaving his "fishbowl" inner pressure helmet pristine for later visibility.

The fishbowl itself is 0.25 inch of Lexan. OSHA mandates only 0.10 inch of polycarbonate (of which Lexan is a branded example) as eye protection against projectile impact. ILC already provided a 2X safety factor just for the fishbowl itself.

There was never any rule against raising the inner visor. It was always at the astronaut's discretion. You don't get to make up new "rules" for NASA just so you can call people "perps."

I will have to scrutinize these images to see if a definitive determination can be made.

You've already made your determination. You're crowing as if your case has already been won, when in fact you haven't even started to look at evidence. This is why no one believes you.

Yes, Mr. Math(s) Teacher, please show us the mathematics that allows you to determine whether a 1.25-inch by 0.75-inch white tab (the tab attached to the inner visor) is visible in the upper or lower position in that still. The larger tabs on the tinted visor are not discernible in the still, even when you know exactly where to look for them.

From someone who claims to be a master bike builder and a math(s) expert, I expect some degree of rigor here, not vague handwaving. Will I get it?
 
...prove that there was not any "LM lifeboat assessment" made before the flight or withdraw that claim.

Patrick, I really must insist that you address my last post quoted here. You made a big mistake claiming that there was no "lifeboat assessment" made before the flight, and you will retract that claim.
 
Yesterday I spent the evening...

...avoiding all the open questions in this forum and plotting your next break-neck change of subject.

Two new walls of text, without any addressing of prior arguments. You've had three days to prepare a response, during which the remainder of the discussion has largely slowed to a trickle. Your standard excuse that your'e "too busy" does not apply. You had plenty of time to catch up. Your stand-by excuse that you are picking and choosing which points you think are important is not only blatant cherry-picking, but also inapplicable since you've simply forged ahead on new material.

There can be no mistake about what the map's/monitoring chart's coordinates are.

I will remind the readers that you failed all tests of demonstrable expertise in cartography. Your assessment of what constitutions appropriate chart annotations does not qualify as proof.

If such was the case, then one would expect to find the Press Kit, AKA, bogus fraudulent coordinates at the monitoring chart's targeted landing site ellipse center.

Asked and answered. Your inability to reconcile different projections and annotations does not constitute proof.

To purposefully confuse was the intention of those who prepared what turns out to be yet another fraudulent map...

No. Your belief that the maps are "fradulent" is simply your fanciful excuse for not admitting your demonstrated ignorance of cartographic principles and limitations. Your further supposition that the maps were "altered" intentionally is simply circular reasoning arising from the hypothesis you are trying to prove.

This circularity has been pointed out to you ad nauseam. Do you not understand what a circular argument is and why it's a fallacy?

One reason being, a reason that I will focus on here with several others to be covered in later posts...

Why don't you deal with the refutations already provided in previous posts before simply repeating your long-refuted claims in subsequent walls of text?

...is that the star pattern presented to navigating Apollo "astronauts" at any given time would be unpredictable and therefore not negotiable given the rudimentary equipment.

Asked and answered. Your notion of how the astronauts located stars for navigation purposes is simply not how it was done. You won't abandon your supposition in the face of documentation and testimony for how it was actually done. When you emerge from your fantasy world, please let us all know.

This post will be somewhat of a review on material previously covered...

Yes, you repeat long-debunked arguments all the time. We get it.

Funny how you don't see them doing this or hear about them doing this, covering up the windows with metal plates, much if at all in the course of reading the transcripts and so forth.

In fact no mission found this necessary. Consider that Collins on the one hand describes what was envisioned, and on the other hand what was actually done. Real historians know how to recognize and investigate these distinctions. Explain why you cannot, yet are supposedly the world's foremost Apollo historian.

So Collins writes in his book that sometimes one is fortunate to see constellations and sometimes one is not.

Asked and answered. Collins uses those examples to describe how the computer pointed the sextant at stars, even if the stars were difficult to see with the naked eye through the windows or through the unity-power scope.

Aligning the IMU is essential for navigation, and aligning the IMU is dependent on the accurate sighting of stars.

You grossly misrepresent the importance of the IMU and the difficulty in stellar alignment. I have explained all this patiently to you, but you simply ignore it in favor of your fantasy.

If one cannot see the constellations and identify navigational stars with consistency, one cannot go to the moon.

Asked and answered. The astronauts did not need to recognize the stars by their positions in constellations in order to perform a P52 alignment check.

First of all, Collins claims that it is pupillary constriction that is responsible for dark/light adaptation...

Asked and answered months ago. Collins is not an expert in physiology. We concede he has made an error here.

I even purchased the physiology manual that flight surgeons used covering this material in the late 1960s.

Irrelevant. First, you are not a doctor, and hence are not an expert interpreter of that text in this situation. Second, it does not affect Collins' error.

An aviator like Collins knew and knows quite well that it is not the essentially instantaneous pupillary constriction/dilatation that is primarily responsible...

Nonsense. You are basing your accusation on what you suppose Collins knows.

Off the top of the average amateur astronomer's head, a rule of thumb is that one can go from seeing several thousand stars with the naked eye to seeing 100,000 stars by way of employing simple "bird watching" binoculars.

If you're going to invoke the amateur astronomer's experience, then you are still on the hook to report whether you contacted any astronomy organizations and asked them to comment on your claims that stars would be unidentifiable.

Obviously, what I would like to do is make some determination, minimal estimate, as to how many stars Collins might be expected to have access to...

I have asked you four times now to prepare a list of stars near the Apollo reference stars that had comparable magnitudes. You have repeated this claim over and over again without the slightest inclination to supply any actual evidence for the clutter of stars you claim would make it impossible for Collins to perform his P52 duties.

Further, you have neglected to reconcile the actual P52 results with the noted tolerances of the IMU and the schedule with which they were checked. Those data affect your claims.

Finally, your fumbling through a freshman's discussion of apparent magnitude and optical loss is refuted from your material on Charlie Duke. Do you need to be pointed to it, or can we optimistically assume you'll go back and actually read what you claim to have read?


The issue with stars and lasers has been gone into already in a great deal of detail.

Please explain why you have not computed the apparent luminance of the LRRR laser as seen from the surface of the Moon. You have repeated this argument now several times without providing the requested evidence, all the while posting walls of new material.

Feel free to comment on these important loose ends at any time.

Why? You have a long history of ignoring anything that's said to you.

You can start by addressing the refutation to your dozen-or-so key points that has stood unchallenged by you for going on one month.
 
A few days ago I was woken up in the middle of the night. It was remarkably clear. So between the weather and the time I had no idea of where things were supposed to be in the sky, and I was presented with an unusual number of stars.

I picked up Orion in under five seconds. It was way over on the horizon and tipped over from how I was used to seeing it and filled in with a bunch of extra stars and I still took under five seconds to go "Oh, hey, I see one I recognize over there!"

Patrick, how often do you actually go outside and look up?
 
A few days ago I was woken up in the middle of the night. It was remarkably clear.

I live near one of the nation's largest high deserts. Especially during the Perseids, I pile a few friends in the car and we drive out to the middle of the middle of nowhere. Seriously -- this is a desert you can set off nuclear bombs in, and no one notices. We're above the goopiest parts of the atmosphere, and probably 20-30 miles from any light pollution.

No one has yet had any problem picking out constellations and, for those who are savvy enough, individual stars. We spread out a blanket and lay on our backs and just drink in the cosmos. Every so often we shield our eyes while someone with flashlight goes on scorpion patrol. But the heavens are not the baffling mystery Patrick1000 makes them out to be.

Typical conversation: "There's Ursa Major, so there's Polaris. That means the ecliptic is roughly here [sweeping hand motions describing plane]. See how the Solar System is inclined with respect to the Milky Way, the plane of the galaxy? And we should be able to see the planets in a band roughly here..." If you get lost in cislunar space, it's your own silly fault.
 
I live near one of the nation's largest high deserts. Especially during the Perseids, I pile a few friends in the car and we drive out to the middle of the middle of nowhere. Seriously -- this is a desert you can set off nuclear bombs in, and no one notices. We're above the goopiest parts of the atmosphere, and probably 20-30 miles from any light pollution.

No one has yet had any problem picking out constellations and, for those who are savvy enough, individual stars. We spread out a blanket and lay on our backs and just drink in the cosmos. Every so often we shield our eyes while someone with flashlight goes on scorpion patrol. But the heavens are not the baffling mystery Patrick1000 makes them out to be.

Typical conversation: "There's Ursa Major, so there's Polaris. That means the ecliptic is roughly here [sweeping hand motions describing plane]. See how the Solar System is inclined with respect to the Milky Way, the plane of the galaxy? And we should be able to see the planets in a band roughly here..." If you get lost in cislunar space, it's your own silly fault.

That's funny, because not twenty minutes ago, I went out the back yard for a smoke, and found myself looking up going "there's Ursa Major, right over there is polaris, follow the same line, and there's Cassiopeia, and so forth.

And, before that, me and my kids walked to the local pizzeria, and we had an interesting conversation about Venus, which was stunningly bright. Wonderful stuff.

The baffling mystery, is why P1k thinks that a 6 and 9 year old can pick out constellations which astronauts are somehow unable to do.
 
No one has yet had any problem picking out constellations and, for those who are savvy enough, individual stars. We spread out a blanket and lay on our backs and just drink in the cosmos. Every so often we shield our eyes while someone with flashlight goes on scorpion patrol. But the heavens are not the baffling mystery Patrick1000 makes them out to be.

I haven't been following this topic for all that long so please forgive me for asking but if someone could clarify, his position I'd appreciate it. Is he claiming because more of the less visible (faint) stars can be seen in space, that means astronauts should be unable to make out constellations?

If so, he does realize the magnitude of all stars would be increased and the brightest stars (which make up the constellations) as seen from Earth would still be the brightest stars as seen from space?
 
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